# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 484
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2016, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9662 "2016-10-11T14:08:40Z")
Because of course, when one has the authority to use lethal force, a good old fashioned head stomping with attendant risk of death or permanent disability is a perfectly acceptable response to someone resisting. :rolleyes: You people who believe this are fucking evil and irredeemable bastards who should never be allowed near any position of power. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2016, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9663 "2016-10-11T14:21:42Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > It’s been my experience, having known my fair share of cops, that when things like that happen it’s usually the result of the miscreant having done something to the cop(s) that wasn’t apparent, such as biting them or otherwise causing them harm or trying to cause them harm during the time they were being brought under control. I’m sure the police-should-react-perfectly-no-matter-the-provocation crowd will find this unacceptable, but cops don’t usually stomp people or abuse them in other ways just for the fun of it and completely unprovoked, and we don’t live in a perfect world so there are going to be times when cops deal out punishment to people who’ve dealt out punishment to them. I have no particular problem with this, myself, provided that the retaliation is warranted and doesn’t do harm out of proportion to that of the harm inflicted. This is one of the ways people learn not to get violent with cops. Why should people refrain from trying to hit, stab, bite or otherwise injure cops if they know beforehand the cop won’t retaliate? Do you think that there is any point to the court or legal system then? From your remarks, it appears as though you feel that the police are the best arbiters of what the populace they are sworn to protect deserve? So, just to be clear, you have no problem with the police torturing people in their custody, as long as they “deserve it?” I truly hope that you never get on the bad side of a cop, and he decides to dish out what you deserve. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2016, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9664 "2016-10-11T15:00:59Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I found [a story about the initial incident with the dashcam video](http://fox61.com/2016/10/05/hartford-police-to-release-video-in-excessive-force-investigation/). After watching it, the most shocking part to me was how casual he seemed about it. He just kinda walked up and kicked him in the back of the head. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2016, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9665 "2016-10-11T17:18:40Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > It’s been my experience, having known my fair share of cops, that when things like that happen it’s usually the result of the miscreant having done something to the cop(s) In my experience, with my fair share of cops, many cops think everyone who isn’t a cop is a miscreant. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2016, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9666 "2016-10-11T17:35:40Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Yep! See, you just did it again! (One can’t help but wonder what your students would make of you were they to see the way you behave on this board. Given that i teach my students to read the evidence closely, and analyze it in its totality, what the smarter ones among them would probably say in this case is something like: > [@](#): > > Wow, that **Starving Artist** guy, who you called dishonest piece of shit, does indeed seem to be a dishonest piece of shit. He admits that most of what he posts is opinion, and at the same time he constantly tries to pass that opinion off as evidence of things that are factually true. > > He says in one post that he has “no particular problem with” police beating suspects who have resisted arrest or done something to the police, and then claims, soon after, that he was not justifying police brutality. He is apparently too fucking stupid to realize that there is no legal exception that allows the cops to beat a restrained suspect just because they happen to be angry about something that the suspect did (or tried to do) to them, and that the type of police violence that he has “no particular problem with” is, in fact, police brutality. It’s also worth noting that, if the way i “behave on this board” is something you find unusually hostile, it might be because you mainly see me in threads where you are also present, and i’m quite happy to admit that you boneheaded stupidity combined with your self-righteous mendacity do sometimes result in me calling you out for the dishonest piece of shit that you really are. Happy to help! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2016, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9667 "2016-10-11T18:06:05Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Yes. You can even fire someone if they don’t lose a civil suit. Unless shoving a screwdriver up another human being’s ass is actually departmental procedure and policy, you can fire them for violating those policies. Preponderance of the evidence is enough for a civil suit, and it is more than enough for employment. So I can accuse you do doing something horrible and get you fired even if I don’t prove it? I don’t think this is true. > [@](#): > > The police union may make things more complicated, but once again, that’s just cops covering for bad cops. The teacher’s union would do the same thing for a teacher that was accused of but not convicted of something. > [@](#): > > Does this mean that you are okay that these people still have badges and authority? It depends, did we prove they did anything wrong or not? If not then are we firing police officers for accusations of police brutality? Are you really OK with firing people based on accusations because that policy might not work out the way you hope. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2016, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9668 "2016-10-11T18:09:17Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > It’s been my experience, having known my fair share of cops, that when things like that happen it’s usually the result of the miscreant having done something to the cop(s) that wasn’t apparent, such as biting them or otherwise causing them harm or trying to cause them harm during the time they were being brought under control. I’m sure the police-should-react-perfectly-no-matter-the-provocation crowd will find this unacceptable, but cops don’t usually stomp people or abuse them in other ways just for the fun of it and completely unprovoked, and we don’t live in a perfect world so there are going to be times when cops deal out punishment to people who’ve dealt out punishment to them. I have no particular problem with this, myself, provided that the retaliation is warranted and doesn’t do harm out of proportion to that of the harm inflicted. This is one of the ways people learn not to get violent with cops. Why should people refrain from trying to hit, stab, bite or otherwise injure cops if they know beforehand the cop won’t retaliate? If I retaliated that way to someone who couldn’t defend themselves, I would go to jail. Why do cops get a pass? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2016, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9669 "2016-10-11T18:25:16Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I’m pretty sure you or I would be fired if we cost our employer $4M. Don’t you? The employer was sued for something [/quote] Yes on both points. And more may come of it but as of right now, we’re not at a point where we can fire people yet. All we have are allegations. If they find the victim’s DNA on those screwdrivers, then that seems like proof that may go beyond a reasonable doubt. > [@](#): > > Are you asking if there’s a union contract stipulation that may be preventing these officers from being fired? Because I have no idea if that’s what’s going on here. But I can’t imagine that the union is that powerful that it can block any and all disciplinary actions. If this is the case, then police unions really are evil institutions. If I ran the Chicago PD, I would put them on desk duty until we completed an investigation but I wouldn’t fire them until they got convicted. I still remember when the Obama administration fired Shirley Sherrod because she had been convicted in the court of public opinion. I still remember the Duke Lacrosse team; I still remember the U. Va. rolling Stone article. Accusations are cheap and easy to come by. There is at least some chance that the victim who spent the night in jail got his rectum torn in some other way. What if the teacher’s union contract forbade firing a teacher due to allegations of misconduct? Would you think the te4acher’s union is an evil institution? ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2016, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9670 "2016-10-11T20:52:38Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Given that i teach my students to read the evidence closely, and analyze it in its totality, what the smarter ones among them would probably say in this case is something like:It’s also worth noting that, if the way i “behave on this board” is something you find unusually hostile, it might be because you mainly see me in threads where you are also present, and i’m quite happy to admit that you boneheaded stupidity combined with your self-righteous mendacity do sometimes result in me calling you out for the dishonest piece of shit that you really are. > > Happy to help! 🙂 Hmm…to the best of my recollection you’ve been called out numerous times to demonstrate my alleged ‘mendacity’ (which is to say ‘lying’ or ‘dishonesty’ in self-impressed **mhendo** -speak), and have failed to be able to do so each. and. every. time., whining instead that my dishonesty is so cleverly couched in statements that can’t be proven dishonest that it’s impossible for you to do so. And then of course there’s the possibility of what you once said to **Bricker** while in faux-intellectual/philosopher mode that you believed me to be dishonest but unaware of it. And evidence of your deep-seated assholishness is present all over the board, not just the ones I participate in. I once did a search of your posts just to see how you behave in other threads around the board, and literally one of every three posts you made (on average) contained some sort of insult or denigrating remark, usually aimed at someone most posters would feel had done absolutely nothing to deserve it. You, yourself, have proudly admitted to me that yeah, you’re an asshole and you own it. With regard to what you’re students might have to say about my position on police brutality, you might try educating them on matters of provocation and of degree. There’s a difference between police brutality, unprovoked and as a matter of course, and the sort of brutality that results from the infliction of painful injury by the arrestee. In other words, one of these things is not like the other. You might also try educating them on the concept of ‘cause and effect’, in which people learn by word of mouth that if you physically harm an officer you’re going to pay a painful price, in which case they and everyone else who hears about it will be less inclined to attempt it themselves. This results in fewer instances of brutality _against_ the police, and therefore fewer instances of brutality _from_ the police, and this is what you want to see in the first place, yes, no? Oh, wait! No, you don’t… What you want is for the police to have to endure endless amounts of physical punishment, pain and provocation while never retaliating, and you couldn’t care less if this results in more brutality against the police, because all your sympathies lie with the miscreant/criminal, and to you the police are the real bad guys. :smack: What was I thinking!? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2016, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9671 "2016-10-11T20:58:08Z")
You weren’t. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2016, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9672 "2016-10-11T20:59:20Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Hmm… :smack: What was I thinking!? Translation: Don’t you know that the more police beat the ever loving fuck out of people for resisting, the less people resist and the less the police NEED to beat the ever loving fuck out of people??!? yeah… ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2016, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9673 "2016-10-11T21:06:08Z")
No, there’s no need for translation in order to belittle a point I never made. It’s one thing to resist being put in handcuffs, for example, and another entirely to bite the shit out of a police officer’s inner thigh (as I know of having happened) or to try to tear the corner of his mouth open, or gouge his eyes out, or (and here’s one that should have all of you screaming for blood) squeeze a female officer’s boobs. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2016, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9674 "2016-10-11T21:08:46Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > No, there’s no need for translation in order to belittle a point I never made. It’s one thing to resist being put in handcuffs, for example, and another entirely to bite the shit out of a police officer’s inner thigh (as I know of having happened) or to try to tear the corner of his mouth open, or gouge his eyes, or (and here’s one that should have all of you screaming for blood) squeezing a female officer’s boobs. Have you seen anyone in this thread defending people doing such things? ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2016, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9675 "2016-10-11T21:11:52Z")
I’ve seen people in this thread insist that such behavior should not be retaliated against. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2016, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9676 "2016-10-11T21:27:32Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I’ve seen people in this thread insist that such behavior should not be retaliated against. “retaliated”? ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2016, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9677 "2016-10-11T21:43:07Z")
Here, let me help you out: re·tal·i·ate rəˈtalēˌāt/ verb make an attack or assault in return for a similar attack. “the blow stung and she retaliated immediately” synonyms: fight back, hit back, respond, react, reply, reciprocate, counterattack, return like for like, get back at someone, give tit for tat, take reprisals, get even, get one’s own back, pay someone back, give someone a taste of their own medicine; More archaic repay (an injury or insult) in kind. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2016, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9678 "2016-10-11T21:50:23Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Here, let me help you out: > > re·tal·i·ate > rəˈtalēˌāt/ > verb > make an attack or assault in return for a similar attack. > “the blow stung and she retaliated immediately” > synonyms: fight back, hit back, respond, react, reply, reciprocate, counterattack, return like for like, get back at someone, give tit for tat, take reprisals, get even, get one’s own back, pay someone back, give someone a taste of their own medicine; More > archaic > repay (an injury or insult) in kind. No-Let me help _you_ out: _ **It’s not the fucking job of the police to “retaliate”, you fucking moron!** _ So glad I could clear up any misconceptions you might still have on the subject. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2016, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9679 "2016-10-11T21:57:21Z")
Oh, sorry, that it’s not their job is such a stupid point that it never occurred to me even you would try to make it. Of course it’s not their _job_! This is why they don’t do it as a matter of routine and why their salary and promotions don’t depend on it. In the course of performing their job, however, it may happen that some asshole might inflict or attempt to inflict injury upon them, and when that happens retaliation may occur. As long as the retaliation carried out is proportional I have no problem with it, for the reasons I stated above. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2016, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9680 "2016-10-11T21:58:14Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > So I can accuse you do doing something horrible and get you fired even if I don’t prove it? I don’t think this is true. Yes. You can be fired for any reason. Violating department procedures and costing the department 4 million is a valid reason. You can bet that if I had an employee that violated my policies and got me sued, they’d be all kinds of fired, even if we won the suit. > [@](#): > > The teacher’s union would do the same thing for a teacher that was accused of but not convicted of something. Teaches get fired all the time for all kinds of stuff. Posts to facebook, lewd behavior… about the only thing that they don’t get fired for is performance in the classroom. > [@](#): > > It depends, did we prove they did anything wrong or not? If not then are we firing police officers for accusations of police brutality? Are you really OK with firing people based on accusations because that policy might not work out the way you hope. Yes, they did prove that they did wrong. Winning a civil suit does mean that they were found to have performed the actions they were accused of, by a preponderance of the evidence. This is much different from mere accusation. So, I ask you again, are you happy with the fact that these men still have badges? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2016, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9681 "2016-10-11T22:31:20Z")
I don’t know about you guys, but I just totally love it when somebody posts the definition of a commonly understood word as if it made a point to do so! But no, it is not their job, that’s our job. Our job to vote for people to write the laws, our job to serve on the jury that finds someone guilty, and finally the judge’s job to assign a specified and just retaliation in the form of a sentence. Granted, it might be more efficient to place all those decisions in one set of hands. Perhaps you might prefer that. Perhaps if it were someone as wise and all-knowing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=483) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=485)