# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 495
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2016, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9882 "2016-10-25T20:11:16Z")
> [@Jack Batty](#): > > Historically? No, now. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > So it seems a very different question than yours about Muslims, unless you think that there were never significant numbers of Hatfields or Connors in charge of police and fire departments in the US. No, it isn’t a different question, unless you think that Bull Connor turned a fire hose on people fifty years ago, and that counts, but Muslims shot up a nightclub six months ago, but that doesn’t. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > The problem is when we start putting racists like that into positions of power. Hatfield isn’t in a position of power. What is your evidence that any significant number of people in positions of power are as racist as he was? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2016, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9883 "2016-10-25T20:33:50Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > … but Muslims shot up a nightclub six months ago … That was almost a year ago, in Paris. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2016, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9884 "2016-10-25T20:41:02Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Hatfield isn’t in a position of power. What is your evidence that any significant number of people in positions of power are as racist as he was? Do you not consider fire chief to be a position of power? I mean, I know he is not in power now, because of criminal allegations against him (not becuase of him being a racist), but are you denying that less than two years ago, he did in fact have power? Is two years really outside of your memory, even when we can show you the news articles? What level of power we talking about here? A very quick google found several racist quotes from mayors and police chiefs across the country, quite a few state congressmen, a few US congressmen, and the presidential canditate nominated from the GOP. I could drop a dozen or dozens of links for you, if that is your true desire, but I think you have access to the google machine too. Sometimes we can try to fight ignorance, but sometimes, the ignorant needs to take the first step. > [@](#): > > Regards, > Shodan And you, my friend, have a great day, K9befriender ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2016, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9885 "2016-10-25T22:02:00Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > No, it isn’t a different question, unless you think that Bull Connor turned a fire hose on people fifty years ago, and that counts, but Muslims shot up a nightclub six months ago, but that doesn’t. Trying to have a serious discussion with you. 1 in a million Muslims (or fewer) shoot up nightclubs. 50 years ago, 1 in x sheriffs brutalized black people or allowed it to happen… what do you think x was? I think it was maybe 1 in 2 or so. You might think it was fewer. But it was a nigh-infinitely more significant amount than Muslim terrorists in America today, with a nigh-infinitely more significant effect on our history and society at large. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2016, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9886 "2016-10-25T22:04:27Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Muslims shot up a nightclub six months ago > [@eschereal](#): > > That was almost a year ago, in Paris. I think you’re evading \*\*Shodan’s \*\*point, which is that the Muslims who shot up the nightclub were a mix of police officers and elected officials, so Muslims do bad things too. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2016, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9887 "2016-10-25T22:10:12Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > …but sometimes, the ignorant needs to take the first step… Often, if you get behind them and deliver a strategically placed kick, they will stumble forward a step, even two! ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2016, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9888 "2016-10-26T01:07:46Z")
Just to get the thread off a 2 year old story: [Person calls for help for pregnant suicidal woman. Cops do the job for her.](http://www.cbsnews.com/news/armed-woman-fatally-shot-by-deputies-on-washington-muckleshoot-tribal-lands-was-pregnant/) Report is that she was armed, so it’s possible that the police were completely justified. However, I’m leaning towards she was planning on using it on herself and cops saw a gun and went all Dirty Harry. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2016, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9889 "2016-10-26T02:12:16Z")
> [@Sinaptics](#): > > Just to get the thread off a 2 year old story: > > [Person calls for help for pregnant suicidal woman. Cops do the job for her.](http://www.cbsnews.com/news/armed-woman-fatally-shot-by-deputies-on-washington-muckleshoot-tribal-lands-was-pregnant/) > > Report is that she was armed, so it’s possible that the police were completely justified. However, I’m leaning towards she was planning on using it on herself and cops saw a gun and went all Dirty Harry. That story did not get much response when [it was first posted, yesterday](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=19726135&postcount=9854) ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2016, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9890 "2016-10-26T02:55:19Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > That story did not get much response when [it was first posted, yesterday](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=19726135&postcount=9854) Well, damn. I searched this page and the previous page for “pregnant” and didn’t find anything. This thread moves too damn fast. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2016, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9891 "2016-10-26T11:39:28Z")
> [@Sinaptics](#): > > Just to get the thread off a 2 year old story: > > [Person calls for help for pregnant suicidal woman. Cops do the job for her.](http://www.cbsnews.com/news/armed-woman-fatally-shot-by-deputies-on-washington-muckleshoot-tribal-lands-was-pregnant/) > > Report is that she was armed, so it’s possible that the police were completely justified. However, I’m leaning towards she was planning on using it on herself and cops saw a gun and went all Dirty Harry. As I recall the scene, Harry managed to rescue the suicidal person without killing him. I hear there was an outtake where he shoots him instead, but the director thought it went too far and would completely lose the audience. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2016, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9892 "2016-10-26T13:28:12Z")
> [@raventhief](#): > > [Wellness check goes horribly wrong.](http://thegrio.com/2016/10/24/renee-davis-fatally-shot/) > > ETA: Yes, she did have a gun. And she was 5 months pregnant. There was no other way to resolve the issue? Well shoot, maybe she should have shot at them and ran. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2016, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9893 "2016-10-26T13:55:15Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > When it comes to being a redneck racist, Hatfield is the real McCoy. Hatfields have a long history of corrupt involvement in Kentucky politics. And the term you are looking for is Hill Billy. Rednecks didn’t come until later when the coal miners started to unionize. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2016, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9894 "2016-10-26T13:59:07Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > Muslims don’t exactly have an iron grip on the authority stratum of America. Well, its been said that Obama is the worst Muslim ever. The WORST!!! ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2016, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9895 "2016-10-26T14:03:23Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Neither do racists. > > Regards, > Shodan They USED TO, and not that long ago! And, much of the culture and policy in place is left over from their reign and too many people don’t see a reason to change things because the blatant racism is no longer there. A lot of the racism is still there and you would have to be white to not notice it. Not that whites cannot notice but very few minorities can possibly ignore it. You think its just an accident that the war against drugs goes from"lock em up and throw away the key" when crack was a black problem to a focus on “rehabilitation” now that percocet and other opiates have become a white problem? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2016, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9896 "2016-10-26T16:15:01Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Trying to have a serious discussion with you. 1 in a million Muslims (or fewer) shoot up nightclubs. 50 years ago, 1 in x sheriffs brutalized black people or allowed it to happen… what do you think x was? Fifty years ago, I was in grade school, and you weren’t even born. It’s 2016 - you could look it up. Fifty years ago, racism was a significant factor in police shootings. Now, it isn’t. Jim Crow is dead, and there is no such thing as institutional racism. And nearly all the shootings BLM and related buffoons are protesting have nothing to with racism. Because it’s not fifty years ago - it’s now. Emmet Till wasn’t a dangerous thug. Michael Brown was. Martin Luther King preached non-violence. Jamar Clark broke his girlfriend’s ankle and attacked the police and rescue squad workers trying to help her. The Freedom Riders had a point. The Black Panthers didn’t. And neither does BLM. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2016, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9897 "2016-10-26T16:22:00Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Fifty years ago, I was in grade school, and you weren’t even born. It’s 2016 - you could look it up. > > Fifty years ago, racism was a significant factor in police shootings. Now, it isn’t. Jim Crow is dead, and there is no such thing as institutional racism. And nearly all the shootings BLM and related buffoons are protesting have nothing to with racism. Because it’s not fifty years ago - it’s now. > > Emmet Till wasn’t a dangerous thug. Michael Brown was. Martin Luther King preached non-violence. Jamar Clark broke his girlfriend’s ankle and attacked the police and rescue squad workers trying to help her. The Freedom Riders had a point. The Black Panthers didn’t. And neither does BLM. > > Regards, > Shodan Not taking your word for it. 50 years ago, black people were very right about how they were treated, and most white people were very wrong about how black people were treated. I’m not going to conclude that the reverse is true now just based on an assertion. I still think it’s reasonable, at least to start with, to believe that black people are more likely to have an accurate understanding of how black people are treated than white people, as has been true for pretty much all of American history. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2016, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9898 "2016-10-26T16:46:45Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I still think it’s reasonable, at least to start with, to believe that black people are more likely to have an accurate understanding of how black people are treated than white people, as has been true for pretty much all of American history. Who had the more accurate understanding of how Michael Brown was treated, the BLM leaders who said he was shot in the back, or the autopsy that said he wasn’t? Who had the more accurate understanding of how Jamar Clark was treated, the BLM folks who said he was shot while handcuffed, or the investigation that showed he wasn’t? Who had the more accurate understanding of how Crystal Mangum was treated, her or the lacrosse players she falsely accused of rape? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2016, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9899 "2016-10-26T17:17:30Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Who had the more accurate understanding of how Michael Brown was treated, the BLM leaders who said he was shot in the back, or the autopsy that said he wasn’t? Who had the more accurate understanding of how Jamar Clark was treated, the BLM folks who said he was shot while handcuffed, or the investigation that showed he wasn’t? Who had the more accurate understanding of how Crystal Mangum was treated, her or the lacrosse players she falsely accused of rape? > > Regards, > Shodan If I pointed to cases in which the reverse was true (say, the Sean Groubert shooting, which was initially defended by some, or the DOJ report on the Ferguson police department, which disparately treated thousands of people), would that sway your opinion? The BLM movement isn’t about individual cases – it’s about the larger issue of disparate treatment by law enforcement. They’ve made some tactical errors, in my view, by focusing on bad examples, but they’ve also focused on good examples (that are generally ignored by opponents of BLM). And BLM is doing good things. The very fast and very significant increase in body camera usage is at least partially due to their advocacy. Many police departments are working with the local BLM representatives, such as the Boston PD, which (IIRC) hasn’t killed an unarmed person in many years. Bad PDs like Ferguson are getting more scrutiny and bad behavior and bad policies are more likely to be publicized and changed, at least partially due to BLM advocacy. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2016, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9900 "2016-10-26T17:45:45Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Fifty years ago, I was in grade school, and you weren’t even born. It’s 2016 - you could look it up. > > Fifty years ago, racism was a significant factor in police shootings. Now, it isn’t. Jim Crow is dead, and there is no such thing as institutional racism. And nearly all the shootings BLM and related buffoons are protesting have nothing to with racism. Because it’s not fifty years ago - it’s now. > > Emmet Till wasn’t a dangerous thug. Michael Brown was. Martin Luther King preached non-violence. Jamar Clark broke his girlfriend’s ankle and attacked the police and rescue squad workers trying to help her. The Freedom Riders had a point. The Black Panthers didn’t. And neither does BLM. > > Regards, > Shodan Wait a minute… If what you say is true why is there such a discrepancy in sentencing between white and black people for identical crimes? Why do black people have a harder time getting job interviews compared to whites with the exact same qualifications? Why are black people more often stopped for traffic offenses that are committed with the same frequency by whites? Why are black students suspended and expelled from public schools? Do you really believe that institutional racism is dead? If it is, why do study after study show that blacks have worse outcomes with the justice system when all other variables are corrected for? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2016, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9901 "2016-10-26T17:46:08Z")
[Here’s the Ferguson report from the DOJ again](http://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/opa/press-releases/attachments/2015/03/04/ferguson_police_department_report.pdf). There are tons and tons of findings that point to systemic bias in the department against black people. Here’s just one example for which I can’t think of a logical non-racist explanation: > [@](#): > > Notably, with respect to speeding charges brought by FPD, the evidence shows not only that African Americans are represented at disproportionately high rates overall, but also that the disparate impact of FPD’s enforcement practices on African Americans is 48% larger when citations are issued not on the basis of radar or laser, but by some other method, such as the officer’s own visual assessment. So the ratio of black to non-black speeding tickets when on the basis of radar or laser was X, but the ratio of black to non-black speeding tickets when on the basis of the “officer’s own visual assessment” (or some other non-laser/radar basis) was X + 48%. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=494) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=496)