# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 50
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2015, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/981 "2015-03-07T18:19:09Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > So only black people use drugs, you’re saying? No, he’s saying that the methods of enforcing the Drug War have been disproportionately used against black people. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2015, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/982 "2015-03-07T18:51:56Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > So only black people use drugs, you’re saying? No, in fact that’s the precise opposite of the point he’s making. Studies consistently show, even in cases where whites use drugs at the same rates as blacks, or at higher rates than blacks, that blacks are still more likely to be stopped and more likely to be arrested for drug use. Part of that is the fact that poorer people often find it more difficult to hide their drug use, but part of it is also that police tend to focus their attentions of poor communities of color even when they know that they could, if they were so inclined, find drug use in wealthier white communities. And this applies from relatively benign drugs like marijuana through to harder drugs. Here are some [stats](http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/06/04/the-blackwhite-marijuana-arrest-gap-in-nine-charts/) for marijuana. ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2015, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/983 "2015-03-07T19:29:37Z")
And now for [something completely different](http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2014/02/10/cbs13-cameras-capture-dramatic-takedown-of-sacramento-suspect/) Should cops risk serious injury to stop a suspect? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2015, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/984 "2015-03-07T20:10:53Z")
[http://touch.latimes.com/#section/-1/article/p2p-82983294/](http://touch.latimes.com/#section/-1/article/p2p-82983294/) — > [@](#): > > “There were guys who were afraid to walk down the street because they didn’t have an ID. The police, that’s just an excuse for them to take you in and fingerprint you,” he said. > > Seltzer had a truck, and offered rides to fellow residents in exchange for gas money. > > “People will pay $5 to go to the gas station just to avoid the police,” he said. > > A neighbor who caught the bus to a local technical school would text him for a ride once he returned, or to let him know he made it home safe. > > “It was like a buddy system,” Seltzer said, “not because of criminals, because of the police harassment.” This is not merely vigorous enforcement of the law. This is a description of a police state in which the law enforcement apparatus is used to systematically oppress a minority group. This is state-sponsored terrorism, right here in our own country. [http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2015/03/04/95-percent-of-people-arrested-for-jaywalking-in-ferguson-were-black/](http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2015/03/04/95-percent-of-people-arrested-for-jaywalking-in-ferguson-were-black/) — > [@](#): > > Of course, white people jaywalk, too. Yet the federal report describes numerous instances in which police officers used this innocuous ordinance, which requires people to walk on the sidewalk or on the left side of the street if there is none, to retaliate against civilians (most of them black) whom the police felt were being disrespectful. > > “Officers in Ferguson also use their arrest power to retaliate against individuals for using language that, while disrespectful, is protected by the Constitution,” the report said. And, this again demonstrates how the “Just obey the cops and take it to court if you have a problem” people have deliberately stuck their heads up their asses. These victims of police oppression have no realistic recourse in the courts, even if they could afford the time and the expense. You have an absolute, constitutionally protected right to be disrespectful to authority—for example, to tell a cop to go fuck himself. If a cop is allowed to use his authority to enforce “respect” then that is a basic violation of our human rights. _Cops do not have the right to respectful treatment from the public_. They just don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2015, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/985 "2015-03-07T20:18:42Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > You have an absolute, constitutionally protected right to be disrespectful to authority—for example, to tell a cop to go fuck himself. If a cop is allowed to use his authority to enforce “respect” then that is a basic violation of our human rights. From what source do “human rights” emanate, if not the state itself? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2015, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/986 "2015-03-07T20:19:42Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Studies consistently show, even in cases where whites use drugs at the same rates as blacks, or at higher rates than blacks, that blacks are still more likely to be stopped and more likely to be arrested for drug use. Part of that is the fact that poorer people often find it more difficult to hide their drug use, but part of it is also that police tend to focus their attentions of poor communities of color even when they know that they could, if they were so inclined, find drug use in wealthier white communities. Then that’s a problem that should be solved by holding whites accountable to the same standard as everyone else. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2015, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/987 "2015-03-07T20:20:35Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > From what source do “human rights” emanate, if not the state itself? So what? It doesn’t matter from where they “emanate”. This is totally irrelevant. > [@Smapti](#): > > Then that’s a problem that should be solved by holding whites accountable to the same standard as everyone else. You can go ahead and advocate for this, while the rest of us will advocate for fair, dignified, and respectful treatment regardless of race. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2015, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/988 "2015-03-07T20:23:53Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > So what? It doesn’t matter from where they “emanate”. This is totally irrelevant. Of course it does. If human rights emanate from the state, then claims like “If a cop is allowed to use his authority to enforce “respect” then that is a basic violation of our human rights” are false. If they do not emanate from the state, then whether they exist or have any validity whatsoever is in question. > [@](#): > > You can go ahead and advocate for this, while the rest of us will advocate for fair, dignified, and respectful treatment regardless of race. So we’re advocating for the same thing, then? ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2015, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/989 "2015-03-07T20:26:31Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Then that’s a problem that should be solved by holding whites accountable to the same standard as everyone else. Never suggested otherwise. Do you agree that, to the extent that cops DON’T do this, they are abrogating their duty, especially to the black people that they disproportionately target with their enforcement? Remember, asshole, that one of the central purposes of this thread is to demonstrate precisely the point you conceded right here: that law enforcement often does not treat people fairly, and that, when it treats people unfairly, it often does so especially to racial and ethnic minorities. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2015, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/990 "2015-03-07T20:31:17Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Do you agree that, to the extent that cops DON’T do this, they are abrogating their duty, especially to the black people that they disproportionately target with their enforcement? If they are ignoring crimes committed by white people then they are neglecting their duty. The solution to this problem is not to ignore crimes committed by black people. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2015, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/991 "2015-03-07T20:36:26Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > From what source do “human rights” emanate, if not the state itself? Even if we concede that rights emanate from the state (something that only an authoritarian or a totalitarian would argue in the first place), it is still perfectly reasonable to argue that police efforts to enforce “respect” are an abrogation of those rights. I don’t recall anywhere in the Constitution or the laws of the state (which, remember, you believe to be the source of our rights) that mandate respect for police or for authority. There are specific laws about obeying lawful police instructions, and about not lying to police, but there is no blanket requirement for respect. Your argument fails, even by the ridiculous standards that you yourself have set for the origin of human rights. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2015, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/992 "2015-03-07T20:41:11Z")
I’ve been trying to work you out, **Smapti**. All i can surmise, based on your reflexive defense of law enforcement, your narrow view of how it should work, and your broader support for government intervention in almost every area of life, is that you’re actually a Stalinist. I understand that i might have missed some of the nuances of your worldview, but almost every position you take reminds me of old-fashioned leftist totalitarianism. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2015, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/993 "2015-03-07T20:42:36Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Even if we concede that rights emanate from the state (something that only an authoritarian or a totalitarian would argue in the first place) And where would you argue they emanate from? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2015, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/994 "2015-03-07T20:46:26Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Of course it does. If human rights emanate from the state, then claims like “If a cop is allowed to use his authority to enforce “respect” then that is a basic violation of our human rights” are false. If they do not emanate from the state, then whether they exist or have any validity whatsoever is in question. Bullshit. It doesn’t matter from where they “emanate”. Whether or not they come from the state, cops aren’t allowed to use their authority to enforce “respect”. That’s what the constitution says. The First Amendment means people have the right to speak in disrespectful ways to anyone, including cops or government officials. > [@](#): > > So we’re advocating for the same thing, then? What you’ve advocated for is not fair, respectful, and dignified treatment. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2015, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/995 "2015-03-07T20:50:44Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Bullshit. It doesn’t matter from where they “emanate”. So where do they emanate from? Do you know, or is this just some sort of magical thinking where human rights exist just because you believe they do? > [@](#): > > The First Amendment means people have the right to speak in disrespectful ways to anyone, including cops or government officials. The First Amendment as interpreted by the Supreme Court says the government can’t punish you for the content of your speech _within certain limits_. Being “disrespectful” to a police officer in the line of duty is almost certain to cross those limits. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2015, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/996 "2015-03-07T20:52:02Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Bullshit. It doesn’t matter from where they “emanate”. So where do they emanate from? Do you know, or is this just some sort of magical thinking where human rights exist just because you believe they do? > [@](#): > > The First Amendment means people have the right to speak in disrespectful ways to anyone, including cops or government officials. The First Amendment as interpreted by the Supreme Court says the government can’t punish you for the content of your speech _within certain limits_. Being “disrespectful” to a police officer in the line of duty is almost certain to cross those limits. > [@](#): > > What you’ve advocated for is not fair, respectful, and dignified treatment. If you are fair, respectful, and dignified, you will be treated fairly, respectfully, and dignifiedly in return. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2015, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/997 "2015-03-07T20:54:00Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > So where do they emanate from? Do you know, or is this just some sort of magical thinking where human rights exist just because you believe they do? I think they come from people. I’m fine with the idea that they come from the state. But where they come from is totally irrelevant to this discussion. It’s what the rights are that matters, not where they come from. > [@](#): > > The First Amendment as interpreted by the Supreme Court says the government can’t punish you for the content of your speech _within certain limits_. Being “disrespectful” to a police officer in the line of duty is almost certain to cross those limits. Bullshit on your second sentence. Being “disrespectful” is almost certain to _not_ cross those limits. You’re not able to speak on issues like this rationally – you are unable to tamp down on your knee-jerk support for authority. Sometimes the authorities are wrong, but you’re unable to actually recognize most of these situations. > [@](#): > > If you are fair, respectful, and dignified, you will be treated fairly, respectfully, and dignifiedly in return. You can advocate for this, and we’ll advocate that cops should treat every non-violent person fairly, respectfully, and with dignity. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2015, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/998 "2015-03-07T21:14:12Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Being “disrespectful” to a police officer in the line of duty is almost certain to cross those limits. For certain values of “disrespectful,” and for limited values of “almost certain.” **Ninth Circuit** [904 F. 2d 1372 - Duran v. City of Douglas Arizona](http://openjurist.org/904/f2d/1372) > [@](#): > > Defendant relies heavily on the fact that Duran was making obscene gestures toward him and yelling profanities in Spanish while traveling along a rural Arizona highway. We cannot, of course, condone Duran’s conduct; it was boorish, crass and, initially at least, unjustified. Our hard-working law enforcement officers surely deserve better treatment from members of the public. But disgraceful as Duran’s behavior may have been, it was not illegal; criticism of the police is not a crime. **US Supreme Court** [482 U.S. 451 - City of Houston Texas v. Hill](http://openjurist.org/482/us/451) > [@](#): > > The freedom of individuals verbally to oppose or challenge police action without thereby risking arrest is one of the principal characteristics by which we distinguish a free nation from a police state. Read any article or book discussing this issue, and they will almost all note that the “fighting words” doctrine enunciated by the Supreme Court in 1942 has been consistently narrowed and restricted by various court cases since then, and that merely being disrespectful to police, even in the course of their duties (so-called “contempt of cop”), is constitutionally protected speech as long as it doesn’t materially impede those duties, and as long as the words themselves don’t constitute an actual threat or other suggestion of imminent danger. Of course, the second quote, above, is probably not seen as a problem by **Smapti** , because it seems that a police state is precisely what he wants. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2015, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/999 "2015-03-07T21:18:25Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Of course, the second quote, above, is probably not seen as a problem by **Smapti** , because it seems that a police state is precisely what he wants. The quote in question falsely implies that a “free nation” and a “police state” are not the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2015, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/1000 "2015-03-07T21:21:33Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The quote in question falsely implies that a “free nation” and a “police state” are not the same thing. Thanks, at least, for confirming my diagnosis of Stalinism. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=49) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=51)