# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 501
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2016, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/10002 "2016-11-03T17:59:01Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > Oh, there is a difference. Don’t kid yourself. Blacks or Native Americans demonstrate, they are violent troublemakers. Bundy and his “we forgot our food gang”, or that white “alt right” clown who recently shot the cops in Idaho, well hell, they’s just good Murricans bein’ patriotic and shit. Really!?!?, you think people view the Bundys and The guy who shot two cops in Iowa as patriotic good Americans? Maybe at Klan meetings but very few other parts of America see it that way. AFAICT the Native Americans at Standing Rock are getting a lot of support from across the nation from both sides of the aisle. > [@](#): > > God damn right there is a difference. I’m a dumb ass white guy and even I see it. You might be seeing more than what is there. > [@](#): > > One thing to think about while we’re at it. Maybe it’s only a few bad cops… BUT when those few keep doing things and are repeatedly protected, WTF do you expect to happen? The “thin blue line” and the “code of silence” exist. The “system” is broken. > > When there is no justice to be had, there is revenge. It’s simple human nature. We have functional democracy. We have a functional justice system. Revenge is not necessary in our system. We can count the “bad” cop shootings since Ferguson on one hand (maybe two). It is not clear how much injustice exists. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2016, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/10003 "2016-11-03T18:02:03Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Reckon the one thing worse than being the victim of injustice is being helpless to do anything about it. I reckon they can vote in a black mayor, a black city council, a black state attorney and STILL feel helpless enough that rioting and looting are really the only answer. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2016, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/10004 "2016-11-03T18:13:55Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > OK so anything that happened during the civil rights era is CRM to you. I disagree. Anything related to protesting mistreatment of black people? Yes. I’m surprised anyone would disagree with that. > [@](#): > > So you think we’re stuck with supporting BLM or abandoning the cause of highlighting police bias altogether? I disagree. I think your broad-brushing of BLM is unjust and harms the movement to lessen disparate treatment by law enforcement. > [@](#): > > A tiny minority of cops shoot black men without justification and they should eb criticized, heck, throw them in jail I say. But they don’t represent cops as a whole. The vast majority of cops criticize unjustified shootings and have done so from the very beginning. So lets not paint cops with a broad brush and assume there is a problem with policing in America. The problem lies with just a few cops. Amirite? No, because there are actual policies and practices in place that disadvantage and mistreat black people. Ferguson was a great example – the DOJ found that the Ferguson PD used poor black citizens of Ferguson as a piggy bank for funding, shaking them down for piddly non-crimes (like “manner of walking down the street”) to raise funds. Stop and frisk is another example of a policy that disparately affects black people. Further, the cops are the ones in power. Institutions in power must necessarily be looked at differently than those protesting their mistakes. And finally, BLM isn’t focusing on individual cops so much as police culture and common policies and practices as a whole. A just police system would handle its own bad cops – in many communities today, police departments fail to do this. > [@](#): > > I think that violence undermines the organization. You think it can and should be ignored (more or less) in determining the legitimacy of the organization. I don’t think the problems facing BLM comes close to the problems facing the CRM. Most of the members of BLM have a meaningful ability to vote that members of CRM did not always have. Most of the members of BLM have avenues for expressing their dissatisfaction with their governments that members of the CRM didn’t have. I don’t condone violence in the 60’s but we did not have a functional democracy back then so I can understand how that might be the only avenue that some people felt they had because marching seemed to be a good way to get beat up by the cops. The small amounts of violence harms their image (as well as being morally wrong, as violence generally is). But BLM in general strongly opposes it. They can’t control any and every asshole who shows up to their protests (which you seem to agree with below). > [@](#): > > Oh OK, I thought you were talking about violence that occurred during the riots and looting. > > In your calculation of who is the victim of violence, are you including the justifiable use of force by police in the execution of their duties? Or are you just saying that police brutality exists so that somehow excuses or lowers the bar for violence committed by BLM protesters? Sometimes two wrongs do make a right. Is this one of those times? No, I’m not including justifiable uses of force (though there’s no way right now to know for sure what percentage of incidents this is). And no, I don’t believe two wrongs make a right in this sense – nothing justifies rioting and random violence (I’d put “justified” uprisings like from the Warsaw ghetto in WWII as entirely different phenomena). But it’s the fault of rioters and those who encouraged them, which the vast majority of BLM supporters do not do. > [@](#): > > I don’t know about age but they were probably poorer just because blacks on average have below average wealth. The Tea Party was not particularly wealthy but not poor. > > [Tea Partiers Are Fairly Mainstream in Their Demographics](http://www.gallup.com/poll/127181/Tea-Partiers-Fairly-Mainstream-Demographics.aspx) > > No of course they weren’t all caught on video but every shooting has been scrutinized. Anything fishy about these shootings have been brought to our attention. And now with the prevalence of body cams we will catch more and more of these incidents on video. > > Can we similarly limit the criticism of police to the actions of the handful of police officers that have unjustifiably killed black men? Of course not, these killings didn’t occur in a vacuum just as the BLM violence did not occur in a vacuum. > [@](#): > > I will raise my hand and admit that if I am walking through a parking lot at night, I feel less nervous walking by a bunch of cops than I would walking by a bunch of young black men. I realize that for many black people, the opposite is true. > > I can separate BLM from the cause they represent. I have a lot more trouble separating BLM from the actions of BLM members. Every shooting has been scrutinized? You mean for the last year or two, or for the last century? Here’s the problem, or at least one: there were Groubert or Scott style unjust shootings before the bodycam era – undoubtedly there were shootings like this just 5 or 10 years ago and before that would have been swept under the rug because it’s the cop’s story against a dead man’s. There are plenty of other cops who know about this, but didn’t speak up, and still don’t. There are probably thousands of non-racist cops out there _who know about unjust beatings and killings and don’t do anything_ out of loyalty to their comrades, or fear of blue-wall reprisals. Thousands of would-be Serpicos who choose to stay silent. The entire culture of law enforcement has to be pushed and changed until this silence is unacceptable to all, including cops, since we’ll never be able to capture every incident on video from every angle. That’s one of the things BLM is pushing for. And it’s a monumental task. > [@](#): > > Well, BLM is not beyond redemption. If BLM can keep its shit together in the wake of an acquittal of someone like the Walter Scott shooter, then perhaps they have changed their ways. If they can’t then I don’t see why anyone should take them seriously beyond their threats of violence. I applaud you for (apparently) softening your opposition, and urge you to embrace BLM. This doesn’t mean you can’t criticize bad incidents – please do so. But it can be done without condemning the entire movement. > [@](#): > > The ACLU would like to have a word with you. > The SPLC would like to have a word with you. > The Department of Justice would like to have a word with you. > Every fucking media outlet in the country other than Fox news would like to have a word with you. > > Or are these organizations also all affiliated with BLM? From my understanding, the ACLU and SPLC strongly support BLM. The DOJ has done some good things on this as well, but only very recently, and this could easily change depending on who’s in power. As for media outlets, I don’t believe they’re more favorable than unfavorable towards BLM, in general. I wish they were more favorable (and some journalists, like Joy Reid or Chris Hayes, are pretty favorable to BLM), but in general they aren’t. > [@](#): > > I still feel like she would feel significantly less safe if someone stuck their penis in her vagina without her consent. Like not even in the same ballpark. This is a silly point of disagreement, but I think you’re very wrong if you don’t think sexual assault is an incredibly harmful crime, and a lot closer to rape than you’re willing to admit. I think your attitude helps gropers and sexual abusers – it minimizes the impact of their crime, and allows them to pretend that it’s not that big a deal to sexually assault women. Sexual assault should be totally beyond the pale, and not far removed from rape, when it comes to societal shock and disapproval. > [@](#): > > So you never characterized the Tea party based on the behavior or comments of particular tea party members? You would probably be the only on this board. I’m pretty sure I did not. I make it a point not to broad brush, and I’m quite certain I haven’t painted with a broad brush for any group at all. The only times (I’m pretty sure) that I criticized any significant group collectively, it would have been for explicit parts of their ideology (white supremacists, or Holocaust deniers, for example). ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2016, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/10005 "2016-11-03T20:21:31Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Anything related to protesting mistreatment of black people? Yes. I’m surprised anyone would disagree with that. I think lot of people would disagree that the race riots were part of the civil rights movement. I think that a lot of people that were involved in the civil rights movement would disagree that the race riots were part of the civil rights movement. > [@](#): > > I think your broad-brushing of BLM is unjust and harms the movement to lessen disparate treatment by law enforcement. I don’t think it I unjust to paint BLM as a violent movement when there is violent rhetoric and inciting to violence during marches and demonstrations. BLM demonstrations and marches have turned violent frequently enough that you can threaten a prosecutor with riots and burning cities. > [@](#): > > No, because there are actual policies and practices in place that disadvantage and mistreat black people. Ferguson was a great example – the DOJ found that the Ferguson PD used poor black citizens of Ferguson as a piggy bank for funding, shaking them down for piddly non-crimes (like “manner of walking down the street”) to raise funds. Stop and frisk is another example of a policy that disparately affects black people. > > Further, the cops are the ones in power. Institutions in power must necessarily be looked at differently than those protesting their mistakes. Well, that’s a good point. There is a difference between institutions in power and protesters. But which of those differences allows you to transfer some of the guilt of Michael Slager on all police officers but separate the violence of a thousand Baltimore rioters and looters from the BLM movement in Baltimore? > [@](#): > > And finally, BLM isn’t focusing on individual cops so much as police culture and common policies and practices as a whole. A just police system would handle its own bad cops – in many communities today, police departments fail to do this. I agree. We have to dismantle the blue wall of silence. And I think that body cams will help in this regard. > [@](#): > > The small amounts of violence harms their image (as well as being morally wrong, as violence generally is). But BLM in general strongly opposes it. They can’t control any and every asshole who shows up to their protests (which you seem to agree with below). The handful of cases of unjustified shootings harms their image (as well as being morally wrong). But the cops in general strongly oppose unjustified shootings. Cops must do a better job of policing themselves but if we can’t blame BLM for thousands of rioters and looters, we cannot blame the police for a handful of unjustified police shootings. > [@](#): > > No, I’m not including justifiable uses of force (though there’s no way right now to know for sure what percentage of incidents this is). And no, I don’t believe two wrongs make a right in this sense – nothing justifies rioting and random violence (I’d put “justified” uprisings like from the Warsaw ghetto in WWII as entirely different phenomena). But it’s the fault of rioters and those who encouraged them, which the vast majority of BLM supporters do not do. Thousands of rioters and looters. Riots are not conducted by a handful of people. Do you think that violence was predictable on the third day that violence eruped out of demonstrations or would a more responsible organization have taken a day off to let tempers calm? [quote] Every shooting has been scrutinized? You mean for the last year or two, or for the last century?[/qute] Since Ferguson. > [@](#): > > Here’s the problem, or at least one: there were Groubert or Scott style unjust shootings before the bodycam era – undoubtedly there were shootings like this just 5 or 10 years ago and before that would have been swept under the rug because it’s the cop’s story against a dead man’s. There are plenty of other cops who know about this, but didn’t speak up, and still don’t. There are probably thousands of non-racist cops out there _who know about unjust beatings and killings and don’t do anything_ out of loyalty to their comrades, or fear of blue-wall reprisals. Thousands of would-be Serpicos who choose to stay silent. The entire culture of law enforcement has to be pushed and changed until this silence is unacceptable to all, including cops, since we’ll never be able to capture every incident on video from every angle. > > That’s one of the things BLM is pushing for. And it’s a monumental task. I fully agree with this sentiment. How exactly do you think BLM is changing police culture re: blue wall? Just like the BLM folks probably know who many of the rioters are but don’t turn them in, if the failure if cops to turn on their colleagues somehow make them complicit in the crime of their colleagues then (to a lesser extent) protection of rioters and looters by BLM members gives them a share of the guilt of rioting and looting. You don’t change culture with riots and looting, you harden it. > [@](#): > > I applaud you for (apparently) softening your opposition, and urge you to embrace BLM. This doesn’t mean you can’t criticize bad incidents – please do so. But it can be done without condemning the entire movement. I’ve always allowed for the notion that BLM can be redeemed. But there have been riots as recently as a month ago. > [@](#): > > From my understanding, the ACLU and SPLC strongly support BLM. The DOJ has done some good things on this as well, but only very recently, and this could easily change depending on who’s in power. The ACLU supports some of the same causes that BLM supports and supports BLM’s right to protest and exercise their rights but I don’t see where they support BLM and more than they would support a peaceful protest movement that advocates for the same causes. The ACLU would do exactly what BLM is doing now but with less rioting and looting. Same with the SPLC. If BLM disappeared tomorrow, the SPLC would continue to advocate against disparate police treatment of blacks. Other than the threat of violence, what makes BLM better equipped to get anything done than the ACLU/SPLC? > [@](#): > > As for media outlets, I don’t believe they’re more favorable than unfavorable towards BLM, in general. I wish they were more favorable (and some journalists, like Joy Reid or Chris Hayes, are pretty favorable to BLM), but in general they aren’t. The question isn’t whether or not they like BLM. The question is whether or not they can pick up where BLM leaves off if BLM were to evaporate tomorrow. > [@](#): > > This is a silly point of disagreement, but I think you’re very wrong if you don’t think sexual assault is an incredibly harmful crime, and a lot closer to rape than you’re willing to admit. I can see how grabbing someone’s boob can be harmful. But, I still don’t think its comparable to a penis in vagina rape. > [@](#): > > I think your attitude helps gropers and sexual abusers – it minimizes the impact of their crime, and allows them to pretend that it’s not that big a deal to sexually assault women. Sexual assault should be totally beyond the pale, and not far removed from rape, when it comes to societal shock and disapproval. You’re right, grabbing someone’s boob should be a 20 year prison sentence and a lifetime as a registers sexual offender, like rape. Cuz grabbing a woman’s boob is really not all that different from sticking your penis in a woman’s vagina at the point of a gun. That’s not to say its OK to just go around grabbing women’s boobs but its not rape either. Just like assault is not murder. > [@](#): > > I’m pretty sure I did not. I make it a point not to broad brush, and I’m quite certain I haven’t painted with a broad brush for any group at all. The only times (I’m pretty sure) that I criticized any significant group collectively, it would have been for explicit parts of their ideology (white supremacists, or Holocaust deniers, for example). Like I said, you are a minority on this board. I imputed racism to the entire movement because of the actions of a few racist in the movement. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2016, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/10006 "2016-11-04T20:00:23Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I think lot of people would disagree that the race riots were part of the civil rights movement. I think that a lot of people that were involved in the civil rights movement would disagree that the race riots were part of the civil rights movement. They were related, just as any violence associated with BLM protests is related to BLM. Do you seriously argue that a protest against mistreatment of black people in the 60s that devolves into violence isn’t related to the CR movement? > [@](#): > > I don’t think it I unjust to paint BLM as a violent movement when there is violent rhetoric and inciting to violence during marches and demonstrations. BLM demonstrations and marches have turned violent frequently enough that you can threaten a prosecutor with riots and burning cities. Then you could call the CR movement a “violent movement”. Further, once again, this makes it trivially easy to turn any and every movement into a “violent movement” just by paying a few violent assholes. I don’t accept that a few assholes make a movement into a violent one. This just makes it possible for some rich prick to, by spending just a little money, turn every movement he doesn’t like into a “violent movement” through no fault of the movement or their supporters at all. > [@](#): > > Well, that’s a good point. There is a difference between institutions in power and protesters. But which of those differences allows you to transfer some of the guilt of Michael Slager on all police officers but separate the violence of a thousand Baltimore rioters and looters from the BLM movement in Baltimore? I don’t transfer any guilt. Where have I transferred any guilt? I believe that police officers are responsible for their actions, which includes covering up for bad officers (if they have done so). I think it’s most likely that this is a too-common sin among police officers, even though there are many great and decent ones out there. > [@](#): > > I agree. We have to dismantle the blue wall of silence. And I think that body cams will help in this regard. Me too. But I don’t think that will solve the problem entirely. > [@](#): > > The handful of cases of unjustified shootings harms their image (as well as being morally wrong). But the cops in general strongly oppose unjustified shootings. Cops must do a better job of policing themselves but if we can’t blame BLM for thousands of rioters and looters, we cannot blame the police for a handful of unjustified police shootings. We can blame those officers who don’t fight the blue wall of silence, and who otherwise do bad things. We can work to change police culture and policies and practices in general. > [@](#): > > Thousands of rioters and looters. Riots are not conducted by a handful of people. Do you think that violence was predictable on the third day that violence eruped out of demonstrations or would a more responsible organization have taken a day off to let tempers calm? It doesn’t take that many people to start a riot. Most folks will stay out of the way or hide – the majority never take part. I’m not sure the event you’re speaking of, so I can’t speak to the specifics. Sometimes calling off a protest is warranted, sometimes it isn’t. > [@](#): > > I fully agree with this sentiment. > > How exactly do you think BLM is changing police culture re: blue wall? > > Just like the BLM folks probably know who many of the rioters are but don’t turn them in, if the failure if cops to turn on their colleagues somehow make them complicit in the crime of their colleagues then (to a lesser extent) protection of rioters and looters by BLM members gives them a share of the guilt of rioting and looting. You don’t change culture with riots and looting, you harden it. This is a bullshit comparison. The police must be held to a much higher standard than civilians – their power and authority is much, much greater. Further, I see no reason to believe that the vast majority of protesters have hidden any information on rioting or looting from the police. We both accept the existence and the problem of the blue wall. Do you have any evidence that any significant number of BLM protesters refused to cooperate with police in any investigations into rioting? > [@](#): > > I’ve always allowed for the notion that BLM can be redeemed. But there have been riots as recently as a month ago. So criticize the riots and the rioters. > [@](#): > > The ACLU supports some of the same causes that BLM supports and supports BLM’s right to protest and exercise their rights but I don’t see where they support BLM and more than they would support a peaceful protest movement that advocates for the same causes. The ACLU would do exactly what BLM is doing now but with less rioting and looting. > > Same with the SPLC. If BLM disappeared tomorrow, the SPLC would continue to advocate against disparate police treatment of blacks. > > Other than the threat of violence, what makes BLM better equipped to get anything done than the ACLU/SPLC? > > The question isn’t whether or not they like BLM. The question is whether or not they can pick up where BLM leaves off if BLM were to evaporate tomorrow. Body cams happened fast – BLM clearly gets much better results, in a much quicker fashion, than the ACLU and SPLC which (whether they’ve been focused on this or not) haven’t gotten this progress in recent years. And this is probably because BLM is focused on this issue, not a broad spectrum like those other organizations, and BLM is made up mostly of the people affected by the violence they are opposing. > [@](#): > > I can see how grabbing someone’s boob can be harmful. But, I still don’t think its comparable to a penis in vagina rape. > > You’re right, grabbing someone’s boob should be a 20 year prison sentence and a lifetime as a registers sexual offender, like rape. Cuz grabbing a woman’s boob is really not all that different from sticking your penis in a woman’s vagina at the point of a gun. > > That’s not to say its OK to just go around grabbing women’s boobs but its not rape either. Just like assault is not murder. Thinking that sexual assault and rape are as far apart as assault and murder shows how little you understand this issue, IMO. They’re not the same, but they’re much closer than this – they both show a feeling of entitlement to women’s bodies, and feelings of hatred and dehumanization towards women. > [@](#): > > Like I said, you are a minority on this board. I imputed racism to the entire movement because of the actions of a few racist in the movement. Then you shouldn’t have done so. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2016, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/10007 "2016-11-04T20:18:57Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Thinking that sexual assault and rape are as far apart as assault and murder shows how little you understand this issue, IMO. They’re not the same, but they’re much closer than this – No, they’re not. Getting your teeth knocked out or a black eye or concussion is much closer to murder than grabbing a boob is to forcible rape. Perspective and proportion: they should be your friend. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2016, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/10008 "2016-11-04T20:29:45Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > No, they’re not. Getting your teeth knocked out or a black eye or concussion is much closer to murder than grabbing a boob is to forcible rape. > > Perspective and proportion: they should be your friend. No offense, but you come off like some dude who’s grabbed a few women’s tits at drunken xmas company parties and now minimizes the action to soothe his concious. ETA: Amiright, ladies and gentlemen? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2016, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/10009 "2016-11-04T20:48:26Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > No offense, but you come off like some dude who’s grabbed a few women’s tits at drunken xmas company parties and now minimizes the action to soothe his concious. > > ETA: Amiright, ladies and gentlemen? Nah, he sounds like someone who has gotten his teeth knocked out or a black eye or a concussion for grabbing some boobs. And then he complains about how unfair it was. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2016, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/10010 "2016-11-04T21:17:06Z")
Nah, I’m just a realistic, common sensical, feet-on-the-ground kind of guy wandering in amazement through liberal hysteria land, where every social justice offense is equal or near-equal in severity to the most egregious and where the h-word gets tossed around like confetti. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2016, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/10011 "2016-11-04T21:24:12Z")
There’s a h-word? Or is it _an_ h-word? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2016, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/10012 "2016-11-04T21:24:56Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Nah, I’m just a realistic, common sensical, feet-on-the-ground kind of guy wandering in amazement through liberal hysteria land, where every social justice offense is equal or near-equal in severity to the most egregious and where the h-word gets tossed around like confetti. There’s where you go wrong. You assume that because two things are unacceptable, that it is thought that they are the same. This is incorrect. Of course rape is worse than groping. Of course murder is worse than assault. What you don’t seem to understand is that, even if there is something worse you can do, that does not make your actions acceptable. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2016, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/10013 "2016-11-04T21:38:47Z")
The discussion isn’t over whether boob grabbing is acceptable, it’s whether such an action is closer to rape than physical assault is to murder. **iiandyiiii** not only insists that it is but that the very act itself demonstrates ‘hatred’ of women. Now, I’ve been in a few bars in my day and on occasion I’ve seen a few women grab a guy’s butt or even his crotch, and I feel utterly secure in making the declaration that not a single person present ever managed to arrive at the conclusion that these women hated men. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2016, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/10014 "2016-11-04T21:55:38Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > The discussion isn’t over whether boob grabbing is acceptable, it’s whether such an action is closer to rape than physical assault is to murder. **iiandyiiii** not only insists that it is but that the very act itself demonstrates ‘hatred’ of women. > > Now, I’ve been in a few bars in my day and on occasion I’ve seen a few women grab a guy’s butt or even his crotch, and I feel utterly secure in making the declaration that not a single person present ever managed to arrive at the conclusion that these women hated men. In that moment, they treated the men or women like meat. That’s hatred, at least for a moment, as far as I’m concerned. I’m saddened but not surprised that you minimize sexual assault. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2016, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/10015 "2016-11-04T22:12:18Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > The discussion isn’t over whether boob grabbing is acceptable, it’s whether such an action is closer to rape than physical assault is to murder. **iiandyiiii** not only insists that it is but that the very act itself demonstrates ‘hatred’ of women. > > Now, I’ve been in a few bars in my day and on occasion I’ve seen a few women grab a guy’s butt or even his crotch, and I feel utterly secure in making the declaration that not a single person present ever managed to arrive at the conclusion that these women hated men. Boob grabbing isn’t just acceptable, it’s awesome. Assuming you are in an environment where such thing is accepted and expected. Some bars and parties can be like that, consent for some light activity is kinda implied to be given at the door, though it can be withdrawn at any time for any reason. I used to get invited to such parties… Outside of these types of environments, then no, there’s not all that much difference between rape and groping in that in either case, you are not thinking of the other person as a human, but only as a thing. A thing that is just there for your own pleasure. So, in that sense, it’s all on the same continuum, it’s all gaining carnal knowledge without consent. Grabbing a co-worker or employee’s breasts is going to cause them a great deal of harm, shame, and fear. You might not feel this, you have no empathy. All you felt was breasts. There would be a greater degree of negative feelings if you were to rape her than to grope her, but a difference in magnitude, not in kind. I just ask you to for just a moment, put yourself in the perspective of a woman who is being fondled and groped without her permission or consent, and feels she can do nothing to make is stop without losing her job. Just try to imagine that. I know empathy does not come easy to you, but it’ll make you a better person if you can just get an inkling of what it would be like to be someone else. Anyone else. Anyone who is not you. ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2016, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/10016 "2016-11-05T01:36:01Z")
Is this thread going to turn into Starving Artist’s Rape Show? ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2016, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/10017 "2016-11-05T01:39:43Z")
There’s worse things than being raped by Starving Artist. Or so he claims. Repeatedly. With gusto. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2016, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/10018 "2016-11-05T03:49:09Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > No, they’re not. Getting your teeth knocked out or a black eye or concussion is much closer to murder than grabbing a boob is to forcible rape. Oh good. **Starving Artist** has some opinions on rape he’d like to share with us. One-handed, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2016, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/10019 "2016-11-05T04:30:57Z")
[San Antonio cop fired (not arrested and charged, just fired) for feeding a homeless man a literal shit sandwich.](http://theconcourse.deadspin.com/san-antonio-cop-reportedly-fired-for-feeding-homeless-m-1788585952) ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2016, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/10020 "2016-11-05T07:41:45Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > …Now, I’ve been in a few bars in my day and on occasion I’ve seen a few women grab a guy’s butt or even his crotch, and I feel utterly secure in making the declaration that not a single person present ever managed to arrive at the conclusion that these women hated men. Kinda depends on what she intended to do with his junk once she had seized it. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2016, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/10021 "2016-11-05T13:05:30Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I just ask you to for just a moment, put yourself in the perspective of a woman who is being fondled and groped without her permission or consent, and feels she can do nothing to make is stop without losing her job. Just try to imagine that. I know empathy does not come easy to you, but it’ll make you a better person if you can just get an inkling of what it would be like to be someone else. Anyone else. Anyone who is not you. See, the problem is some guys think, “Hey! I wouldn’t mind if some random woman fondled my junk,” and so they have trouble extrapolating. I’m assuming Starving is a straight guy, so imagine that your boss, a man, takes every opportunity to grab your butt, run his fingers down your neck, make suggestive comments, and so on, but you have 2 kids you have to feed at home, so up and quitting isn’t something you can just up and do. Further, the guy has 60 pounds and 6" on you, so throwing down isn’t a viable option either. Now imagine the anger and humiliation you would feel in that scenario. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=500) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=502)