# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 524
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2017, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/10462 "2017-03-09T17:34:01Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > That’s funny - I could have sworn somebody said we were talking about videotaped discrepancies compared to all videotaped arrests. And here we are talking about your ass. Go figure. > > Regards, > Shodan What we are talking about is your claim that the stated number of complaints was too low to worry about, coupled with you refusing to give a number that _would_ worry you. Simple enough to understand. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2017, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/10463 "2017-03-09T17:49:01Z")
I see we have progressed from you denying you have said things you said, to claiming I have said things I have not. SOP, I suppose. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2017, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/10464 "2017-03-09T17:53:08Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I see we have progressed from you denying you have said things you said, to claiming I have said things I have not. SOP, I suppose. > > Regards, > Shodan Buh bye, liar. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2017, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/10465 "2017-03-09T19:41:25Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > How many you got? > > The most recent figure I can find is for 2012, which [says](https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2012/crime-in-the-u.s.-2012/persons-arrested)there were a bit more than 12 million arrests in the US. 62 divided by 12 million works out to 5.1667e-6 according to my calculator. That’s larger than zero, I grant you, but as a figure intended to demonstrate that cops are incentivized to lie and that they get away with it, it falls a little short, IMO. > > If you have better figures, I am open to persuasion. Got any? If not, feel free to rant so I can mock you - that works too. > > Regards, > Shodan Can be more accurately written as, “I’m going to take this extremely small subset and pretend it’s comparable to the entirety of the insanely large and ultimately irrelevant set, then use that to prove my point!” Using the total number of arrests, while uncomplicated, is lazy at best. Of those 12,196,959 estimated arrests, 7,868 are for gambling, 16,023 are for embezzlement, 27,003 are for vagrancy, 56,575 for prostitution, 67,046 are for forgery or counterfeiting, 68,845 are for motor vehicle theft, 70,190 are for curfew or loitering, 97,670 are for buying/receiving/possessing stolen property, 107,018 are for offense against the family and children (that are not otherwise accounted for) 153,535 are for fraud, 228,463 are for vandalism, 441,532 are for violating liquor laws, 511,271 are for drunkenness, 543,995 are for disorderly conduct, 1,282,352 are for larceny, 1,282,957 are for driving under the influence, 1,552,432 are for drug abuse violations, and 1,646,212 are for property arson. That’s (still approximately) 7,998,926 arrests for property crimes, misdemeanors, white collar crimes, and other non-dangerous crimes, or crimes where the arrest is a result of an investigation. Paring the list down to violent crimes, sex offenses (everything from statutory rape to indecency), carrying/possessing weapons, and other assaults leaves us with 2,593,805 arrests. Many of those could be argued about as well, but fuck it, let’s save you something. Now, not all of thoses arrests will result in charges, but since there’s no easily available, compiled statistics on that, we’ll work with what we have. Out of every 100 arrests brought by police for prosecution, ultimately, ~1 is acquitted in court. Since the article itself deals with cops who were shown to be lying on the stand, we don’t have to consider those convicted (in MY perfect world, it’s really hard to convict when a key witness is found to be lying, and video evidence supports the defendant). Using my handy dandy calculator, that gives us 259,380 acquittals. Taking 62 from that, significantly smaller number, gives us a larger, light probably still insignificant number, rounded to .02%, or a couple orders of magnitude difference. Now, getting to this number still involves a lot of other assumptions, as pointed out in the article: It assumes there is any video available. No footage at all? Tough shit. The defendant can afford their own lawyer. Public defense lawyers are overworked across the country. They simply don’t have the resources to search exhaustively for possible video of the encounter. Private attorneys stand a much better chance. Too poor to afford your own lawyer who has the time and resources to present your best possible defense? Tough shit. The footage isn’t in the hands of the state. If an officer is willing to perjure himself, what’s a little destruction of evidence? The only video available is on a police dashcam or body camera? Tough shit. Instead of using wildly inappropriate numbers to prove whatever point you’re trying to make, you could try to approach it critically. It might still give you some support without being a grotesque imitation of integrity. FYI, 2015 data is easily available, along with preliminary 2016 data. 2015 data shows a roughly 11% decrease in overall arrests. Now, I’m not saying your google-fu was lazy, or that your blind advocacy of even gross misconduct by police is appalling. I’m just saying your math is shit. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2017, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/10466 "2017-03-09T20:12:49Z")
What is the percentage of videotaped discrepancies compared to all videotaped arrests? That’s what **Czarcasm** claimed we were talking about, although he later denied that he meant it. > [@](#): > > Out of every 100 arrests brought by police for prosecution, ultimately, ~1 is acquitted in court. How many of those acquittals are due to police being shown to have lied by videotape? Regards, Shodan PS - I am not saying your math is shit. PPS - OK, yes I am. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2017, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/10467 "2017-03-09T20:32:38Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > What is the percentage of videotaped discrepancies compared to all videotaped arrests? Strangely enough, we don’t have that number. That’s why I compared videotaped discrepancies that resulted in acquittals or tossed cases to overall acquittals. > [@](#): > > How many of those acquittals are due to police being shown to have lied by videotape? From your math…62. Do try to keep up. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2017, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/10468 "2017-03-09T20:38:11Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > How many of those acquittals are due to police being shown to have lied by videotape? > . More importantly, how many of the convictions are due to police _not_ being shown to have lied, because they weren’t videotaped? Show your work. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2017, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/10469 "2017-03-09T20:47:08Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > More importantly, how many of the convictions are due to police _not_ being shown to have lied, because they weren’t videotaped? > > Show your work. I can do that! 62. Or 12,196,897 (12,196,959 - 62). Or something. I haven’t really figured out Shodan-math, so my numbers could be iffy. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2017, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/10470 "2017-03-09T20:55:39Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > What is the percentage of videotaped discrepancies compared to all videotaped arrests? Are we including those incidents recorded by civilians or only those by police? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2017, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/10471 "2017-03-09T21:08:37Z")
Both. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2017, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/10472 "2017-03-09T21:47:15Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > What is the percentage of videotaped discrepancies compared to all videotaped arrests? The bigger issue is how seldom convictions of police are made when they do shit like this, particularly if it is not caught on video. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2017, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/10473 "2017-03-10T12:51:20Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > The bigger issue is how seldom convictions of police are made when they do shit like this, particularly if it is not caught on video. OK - in what percentage of cases are police acquitted even though there is evidence beyond a reasonable doubt apart from videotape? Since you claim it is a bigger issue, it must be more than 62 out of whatever figure y’all are pulling out of your respective asses. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2017, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/10474 "2017-03-10T13:01:51Z")
To be convicted, they first have to be charged. A big part of the problem is self-policing, or the lack thereof, in your police culture. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2017, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/10475 "2017-03-10T14:17:14Z")
In what percentage of cases are police not charged even though there is evidence beyond a reasonable doubt apart from videotape? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2017, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/10476 "2017-03-10T14:21:43Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I’d like to live in a perfect world too, but I don’t know of any. > > OK, so somebody picked 62 cherries. How big is the orchard? How much better do you think we can do? What will it cost, in money and effort? > > I realize this is the Pit. If you’d rather have your outrage, fine with me, providing you don’t mind being made fun of. > > Regards, > Shodan It’s funny how this attitude of yours goes out the window when voter ID laws and voter fraud comes up. Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2017, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/10477 "2017-03-10T15:06:09Z")
What’s funny is watching the lefties squirm around and try to change the subject when they lose an argument. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2017, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/10478 "2017-03-10T15:18:35Z")
[Here ya go.](http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/investigative/2015/04/11/thousands-dead-few-prosecuted/) But let’s start with why police departments in your country are not required to report fatal shootings by police to the FBI. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2017, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/10479 "2017-03-10T17:19:31Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > [Here ya go.](http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/investigative/2015/04/11/thousands-dead-few-prosecuted/) > > But let’s start with why police departments in your country are not required to report fatal shootings by police to the FBI. What percentage of those were video recorded? How does it compare to the 16,023 arrests for embezzlement in 2012? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2017, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/10480 "2017-03-10T18:02:39Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > [Here ya go.](http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/investigative/2015/04/11/thousands-dead-few-prosecuted/) > > But let’s start with why police departments in your country are not required to report fatal shootings by police to the FBI. No, I would rather stick to the subject. Is it your contention that you have provided a cite of the percentage of cases where police were not charged even though there is evidence beyond a reasonable doubt apart from videotape? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2017, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/10481 "2017-03-10T18:11:36Z")
Why would I be even slightly interested in doing your homework? If you doubt what your own eyes see in a vid, for example, a police vehicle turning left and hitting a pedestrian, or you doubt the assertion made by the originator of the page it was posted on, by all means dig deeper. I’m not about to do your work for you, or waste my time playing fetch for you. Regards. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=523) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=525)