# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 536
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2017, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/10702 "2017-06-23T06:49:43Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I’ll take that as a No, then. > > Regards, > Shodan Well, obviously, if that had been a white guy, the cop would still have panicked and emptied his weapon in him and then been acquitted. ---
**Author:** ![Not\_Carlson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bc79bd/32.png) [@Not\_Carlson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Not_Carlson)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2017, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/10703 "2017-06-23T13:03:58Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > > [@Shodan](#): > > > > Do you know what the word “routinely” means? > > > [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > > > When the target is black. > > > [@RandMcnally](#): > > > > Those are just the ones we know about because they were caught on video. Based on everything we’ve seen with how the police act after a shooting, I’m quite sure it is routine. > > I’ll take that as a No, then. > > Regards, > Shodan You missed one. Gotta keep 'em all honest, right? > [@Muffin](#): > > Routine. [By the numbers: US police kill more in days than other countries do in years | US policing | The Guardian](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jun/09/the-counted-police-killings-us-vs-other-countries) > > If you do not consider that routine, then you are part of the problem. > > Regards ---
**Author:** ![Not\_Carlson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bc79bd/32.png) [@Not\_Carlson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Not_Carlson)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2017, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/10704 "2017-06-23T13:33:17Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Having seen this video - yeah, this is pretty much inexcusable, and it’s disappointing that the jury ruled the way it did. > [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > :eek: > > WELL FUCK ME SIDEWAYS WITH A TIRE IRON. This is indeed surprising. It seems we have found the pale beyond which Smapti will not pass. Smapti bedrock is 5 bullets shot into a law-abiding, compliant citizen while his fiancé and little girl watch in horror. > [@Muffin](#): > > Young daughter of Philando Castile’s fiancée Diamond Reynolds: > > “I don’t want you to be shooted. > . . . . > I can keep you safe. > . . . . > I DON’T WANT YOU TO BE SHOOTED! > . . . . > I wish this town was safer.” > > [https://youtu.be/DsvFQeO52cM](https://youtu.be/DsvFQeO52cM) Bloody hell, that is heart-breaking. \*“I wish this town was safer.” \* That little girl knows the danger her mother is in, while in police custody. And why the fuck is the mother in cuffs!? Although as the mother points out, that seems to be the safest thing for her in that dangerous situation. “They’re not gonna shoot me, OK. I’m already in handcuffs.” Even the little girl understands this. She panics when her mother wishes aloud that they’d take the cuffs off her. To serve and protect? Bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2017, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/10705 "2017-06-23T15:34:14Z")
> [@BigAppleBucky](#): > > In summary: Trained police officers are given a free pass to panic and start shooting while untrained civilians are expected to remain calm and cool with guns pointed at them. > hmmmmm . . . This is the back breaker for me. Again I think for the most part the problem stems from bad hiring practices and poor training. The fact that the judicial system keeps allowing it to happen is perplexing. ---
**Author:** ![AtomicDog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@AtomicDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AtomicDog)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2017, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/10706 "2017-06-24T01:47:30Z")
[Not even black cops are safe from white cops who are “in fear of their lives.”](http://fox2now.com/2017/06/22/off-duty-officer-wounded-by-fellow-cop-in-shootout/) That phrase has become a license to kill. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2017, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/10707 "2017-06-24T01:50:13Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > :eek: > > WELL FUCK ME SIDEWAYS WITH A TIRE IRON. I haven’t kept track of this thread in a while, but I thought Smapti’s view of cops changed at least somewhat significantly after seeing how many of them voted for Trump? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2017, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/10708 "2017-06-24T01:52:43Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Having seen this video - yeah, this is pretty much inexcusable, and it’s disappointing that the jury ruled the way it did. Wow! :eek: This is pretty strong language coming from you, **Smapti**. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2017, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/10709 "2017-06-24T02:03:03Z")
> [@AtomicDog](#): > > [Not even black cops are safe from white cops who are “in fear of their lives.”](http://fox2now.com/2017/06/22/off-duty-officer-wounded-by-fellow-cop-in-shootout/) > > That phrase has become a license to kill. I was just reading that story on the [St. Louis Post-Dispatch](http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/off-duty-st-louis-officer-injured-by-friendly-fire-after/article_761b9cc4-75d1-5023-a38f-c4096f99d114.html) website. What really gets me is this description of how it happened: > [@](#): > > According to a department summary of the incident released later Thursday, two officers who encountered the armed off-duty officer ordered him to the ground. He complied. When they recognized the off-duty officer, they told him he could stand up and walk toward them. > > Another officer just arriving at the scene saw the off-duty officer get up and, not knowing he was an officer, fired his weapon once at the man. He hit the off-duty officer in the arm, the department said. So two cops have already got this scene under control, and another cop turns up and just starts blasting. It seems that often, in these tense situations, the most likely cause of mayhem is an officer arriving on the scene late. Or is there some sort of rule that says, if you roll up on a situation in progress, you just fire at the first black guy you see? ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2017, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/10710 "2017-06-24T03:55:23Z")
> [@RandMcnally](#): > > Which doesn’t make sense to me: \*\* Muffin\*\* didn’t say anything that should be controversial. Our country does have an insanely high incarceration rate. Our police do shoot people at a high number. This country was founded on slavery. White people did create Jim Crow to try disenfranchise Black people. The only difference is a lot of American don’t really see a problem with any of these issues. I’m sure it was an oversight but you neglected to mention that the country abolished slavery after a bloody civil war and also eventually made Jim Crow laws illegal. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2017, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/10711 "2017-06-24T04:13:19Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > I’m sure it was an oversight but you neglected to mention that the country abolished slavery after a bloody civil war and also eventually made Jim Crow laws illegal. This single, apparently-innocuous sentence is a perfect reminder of how simplistic the thinking is on these issues in so much of America. Slavery ended and Jim Crow laws were rescinded so, in the minds of some Americans, slavery and Jim Crow are no longer relevant in a discussion of race and inequality in the United States. It’s precisely this sort of narrow and blinkered historical thinking that helped to get us where we are now. Just because there have been improvements—and no decent historian would deny that there have been many—does not mean that the legacy of those historical institutions magically disappeared, and can therefore be discounted in our modern era. _De facto_ and _de jure_ discrimination continued well beyond the official end of slavery and the official end of “separate but equal,” and the social and political and economic consequences of discriminatory laws and rulings and policies persist in American life today. You can’t just hand-wave away slavery and Jim Crow; they have to be part of the discussion, which is precisely what **Muffin** was pointing out. And, as **RandMcnally** suggested, for anyone who actually knows the history, this isn’t even really a very controversial set of observations. If you want to see a good example of how these historical inequities connect with present-day racial disparities in American society, i recommend Ta-Nehisi Coates’ excellent article, [The Case for Reparations](https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/06/the-case-for-reparations/361631/), from the Atlantic Monthly a few years ago. If you want some more specialized historical monographs, i could recommend enough to keep you reading for months. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2017, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/10712 "2017-06-24T04:44:28Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > I’m sure it was an oversight but you neglected to mention that the country abolished slavery after a bloody civil war and also eventually made Jim Crow laws illegal. Yes, one day white folk woke up and said, _hey, maybe we should treat negros a little better_. Just like that, spontaneously, they decided to shelve there assholery. All the “COLOREDS” sections were merged into the “WHITES” areas, anybody could sit anywhere on the bus, and no black people had difficulties ever again after that. Only just a few short years after the Jim Crow laws were put into place. ---
**Author:** ![Not\_Carlson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bc79bd/32.png) [@Not\_Carlson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Not_Carlson)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2017, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/10713 "2017-06-24T05:01:32Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > I’m sure it was an oversight but you neglected to mention that the country abolished slavery after a bloody civil war and also eventually made Jim Crow laws illegal. What on god’s green earth do you think you’re proving here? **RandMcnally** was summarizing a few relevant key points of **Muffin’s** post (which you read, of course?). And you will be pleased to note that \*\*Muffin \*\*did indeed acknowledge that both slavery and Jim Crow laws are no longer in effect in the US. When you say “the _country_ abolished slavery after a bloody civil war”, maybe you need to think about the definition of _civil war_. Slavery and Jim Crow were abolished by the US government against the bloody protestations of a huge chunk of the _country_. That slavery and Jim Crow were eventually done away with does not mean that the prejudices and problems that led to and were fostered by those institutions just disappeared when they were made illegal. If you cannot see how that pertains to the current issues of racial discrimination and tension in the US, and specifically in relation to the issue of police violence against black Americans, then maybe you’re one of the folks **RandMcnally** is talking about. > [@RandMcnally](#): > > The only difference is a lot of American don’t really see a problem with any of these issues. Or, what **mhendo** said. ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2017, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/10714 "2017-06-24T16:51:22Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > So two cops have already got this scene under control, and another cop turns up and just starts blasting. It seems that often, in these tense situations, the most likely cause of mayhem is an officer arriving on the scene late. Or is there some sort of rule that says, if you roll up on a situation in progress, you just fire at the first black guy you see? Well, when [Sammy Yatim](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Sammy_Yatim) was killed in Toronto, he had been isolated on a street car and there was no threat to anybody. Then Officer Forcillo show up on the scene and 30 - 40 seconds later Yatim is dead. At least he was, strangely, convicted of attempted murder. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2017, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/10715 "2017-06-24T18:00:37Z")
The first salvo was fired with intent to kill Yatim, and did kill Yatim. The jury found the first salvo justified because the Yatim had not dropped the knife and was moving forward to the exit/police, so no conviction was made based on that killing. The officer did not realize that he had succeeded in killing Yatim with his first volley and did not take into account that Yatim was on his back and not moving, but still fired the second salvo with intent to kill Yatim, so he was convicted of attempting to murder the person he had just killed. At the request of the city’s Chief of Police, a retired Supreme Court of Canada made an [investigation and report](http://www.torontopolice.on.ca/publications/files/reports/police_encounters_with_people_in_crisis_2014.pdf) on police policies, practices, procedures and services concerning the use of lethal or potentially lethal force, especially when encountering emotionally or mentally disturbed people or cognitively impaired people. The provincial ombudsman also put out a [major report](https://www.ombudsman.on.ca/Files/sitemedia/Documents/OntarioOmbudsmanDeescalationEN_1.pdf) that delved into not just the immediate circumstances, but also the longstanding underlying circumstances, particuarly the training of police and the police culture. The reports have been well received and taken very seriously by the public, by the City, and by the police, so although there is still a very long way to go, the problem is being addressed on an ongoing basis and is not being swept under the rug and being normalized. ---
**Author:** ![RandMcnally](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b782af/32.png) [@RandMcnally](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandMcnally)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2017, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/10716 "2017-06-25T01:05:26Z")
Holy shit. None of that would ever happen in the US. Well, I mean the things after the killing. ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2017, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/10717 "2017-06-25T02:04:40Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > the problem is being addressed on an ongoing basis and is not being swept under the rug and being normalized. I understand that and I am glad that it was taken seriously, next they have to do something about carding. I just mentioned the incident because it fit the point about the last cop on the scene causing problems. Now, that I think about it was at least one more example mentioned in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![RandMcnally](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b782af/32.png) [@RandMcnally](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandMcnally)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2017, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/10718 "2017-06-25T12:01:38Z")
> [@Ike\_Witt](#): > > I understand that and I am glad that it was taken seriously, next they have to do something about carding. I just mentioned the incident because it fit the point about the last cop on the scene causing problems. Now, that I think about it was at least one more example mentioned in this thread. I remember a few years there was video of cops breaking up a teen pool party. Things were calm, they were talking to the police, when a cop arrives at the scene, starts yelling at the teens, does a combat roll, and ends up pulling a gun. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2017, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/10719 "2017-06-25T12:43:36Z")
> [@RandMcnally](#): > > I remember a few years there was video of cops breaking up a teen pool party. Things were calm, they were talking to the police, when a cop arrives at the scene, starts yelling at the teens, does a combat roll, and ends up pulling a gun. [No Charges for the Texas Pool-Party Cop](https://www.theatlantic.com/news/archive/2016/06/mckinney-pool-officer/488525/) ---
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2017, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/10720 "2017-06-25T23:12:58Z")
> [@AtomicDog](#): > > [Not even black cops are safe from white cops who are “in fear of their lives.”](http://fox2now.com/2017/06/22/off-duty-officer-wounded-by-fellow-cop-in-shootout/) > > That phrase has become a license to kill. I’m not worried about this. The guy shot a cop, and everyone knows what happens when you shoot a cop, right? Right? ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2017, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/10721 "2017-06-26T14:49:03Z")
$3 million settlement in Castile killing. > **[Slain Minnesota man's family in $3 million police-shooting settlement](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-minnesota-police-idUSKBN19H1IS)** > > The family of Philando Castile, a black motorist shot and killed by a police officer during a traffic stop in Minnesota last year, reached a $3 million settlement with the city of St. Anthony, city officials and family lawyers said Monday. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=535) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=537)