# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 551
**Author:** ![MikeF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@MikeF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeF)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2017, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11002 "2017-08-02T18:10:23Z")
I’m a retired LEO and, normally, pro-police. That Tennessee video is unbelieveable. What could those guys have been thinking? I see jail for those officers in the future and whoever is running a department where that sort of thing is even conceivable needs to go. WTF kind of organizational culture is festering down there? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2017, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11003 "2017-08-02T18:24:18Z")
> [@MikeF](#): > > I’m a retired LEO and, normally, pro-police. That Tennessee video is unbelieveable. What could those guys have been thinking? I see jail for those officers in the future and whoever is running a department where that sort of thing is even conceivable needs to go. New to this sort of thing, are you? How small a town did you retire from, that something like this shocks you, and you expect jail time for the perps and firings for the higher-ups? ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2017, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11004 "2017-08-02T19:37:07Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > New to this sort of thing, are you? How small a town did you retire from, that something like this shocks you, and you expect jail time for the perps and firings for the higher-ups? I know this is the pit and all, but, that’s not really fair, **Czarcasm**. I’m sure my distrust and disdain of law enforcement is no secret on this board, but even I know that there are many (maybe even most) members of law enforcement, who don’t condone outright torture. While I agree that he is naive to think that the perpetrators will actually get jail time for their actions, his outrage is understandable. I have long believed that many of the abuses that police commit stem from their belief that they are on the moral high ground and so they’re actions can be justified. I am also pretty sure that most cops would draw the line at torture. . . at least i hope so. . . mc ---
**Author:** ![RandMcnally](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b782af/32.png) [@RandMcnally](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandMcnally)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2017, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11005 "2017-08-03T17:27:24Z")
[Here’s](https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2017/investigations/police-fired-rehired/?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_firedrehired-1225p%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.30209d407ff1) an interesting article by the Washington Post about how police stations are sometimes forced to rehire police against the wishes of the department. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2017, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11006 "2017-08-03T17:49:31Z")
> [@RandMcnally](#): > > [Here’s](https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2017/investigations/police-fired-rehired/?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_firedrehired-1225p%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.30209d407ff1) an interesting article by the Washington Post about how police stations are sometimes forced to rehire police against the wishes of the department. Unions suck, and people should be fired regardless of contracts or policies. Am I doing this right? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2017, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11007 "2017-08-03T18:39:34Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Unions suck, and people should be fired regardless of contracts or policies. Am I doing this right? That’s a pretty terrible thing to say. I had no idea that you were so anti-union. I will agree with you that union contracts that require police to be reinstated after being videoed challenging handcuffed suspects to fights for their freedom, or being convicted of sexually abusing people in the patrol car, or assisting a fugitive escape justice are a problem, but overall, the police union does quite a bit of good as well. Some reforming on the nature of the contracts and policies may very well be in order to insure that we are not keeping officers who are a danger to the public on the streets, but your suggestion of just ignoring the union contracts entirely is a poor one. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2017, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11008 "2017-08-03T19:50:23Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > That’s a pretty terrible thing to say. I had no idea that you were so anti-union. I’m not so much anti-union in theory as against most of the things they do in practice these days, such as fight to prevent bad employees being sacked, and giving huge amounts of money to those who run them, at the expense of the workers they claim to be representing. I don’t believe they have much of a function these days, when so many health and safety laws exist to protect workers, and minimum wage laws ensure they are paid, but they are the reason these laws exist. I’d have more time for them if they worked harder to protect people who are actually discriminated against, such as gay or trans people, rather than fighting for the rights of bad workers. I just find it amusing that so many people here who are usually strongly pro-union are so against the police union. Presumably it’s because the consequences are so obvious, rather than the more subtle economic and social damage many unions do. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2017, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11009 "2017-08-03T22:13:37Z")
> [@MikeF](#): > > I’m a retired LEO and, normally, pro-police. That Tennessee video is unbelieveable. What could those guys have been thinking? I see jail for those officers in the future and whoever is running a department where that sort of thing is even conceivable needs to go. WTF kind of organizational culture is festering down there? That’s JUST what people are starting to ask. But now, there is video technology. That makes it harder to deny. ---
**Author:** ![RandMcnally](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b782af/32.png) [@RandMcnally](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandMcnally)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2017, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11010 "2017-08-04T00:51:52Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > That’s JUST what people are starting to ask. But now, there is video technology. That makes it harder to deny. Correction: that’s just what some white people are starting to ask. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2017, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11011 "2017-08-04T03:48:48Z")
> [@MikeF](#): > > I’m a retired LEO and, normally, pro-police. That Tennessee video is unbelieveable. What could those guys have been thinking? I see jail for those officers in the future and whoever is running a department where that sort of thing is even conceivable needs to go. WTF kind of organizational culture is festering down there? Are you offering odds on the officers going to jail? I’d certainly take your bet if the incident occurred in Oklahoma, or in Tennessee if the drug kingpin being tortured were black. But for a white kingpin in Tennessee? I’ll need to consider. If you meant “prison” rather than just “jail” or losing their jobs, then … You’re on! How much should we bet? ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2017, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11012 "2017-08-04T08:18:09Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > I just find it amusing that so many people here who are usually strongly pro-union are so against the police union. Presumably it’s because the consequences are so obvious, rather than the more subtle economic and social damage many unions do. It’s possible that it’s a relevant cost-benefit analysis. I don’t remember the last time the IG Metall went to bat for a worker who murdered someone. It also wouldn’t encourage me to lie to defend my coworkers. If police unions are leading to the police thinking that it’s more important to stick together as a cohesive group than it is to weed out murderers and rapists in their ranks - that trusting one another not to snitch is more important than being trusted by the general public - then the organization needs to be reformed or replaced. I have no problem with collective bargaining for cops. I have a serious problem with an institution that enforces an incredibly toxic and dangerous culture among law enforcement. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2017, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11013 "2017-08-04T11:36:05Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Are you offering odds on the officers going to jail? Jail? [Union grievance leading to reinstatement with payment of lost wages is more likely](https://www.adn.com/nation-world/2017/08/03/fired-and-rehired-hundreds-of-officers-fired-for-misconduct-returned-to-policing/). ---
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2017, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11014 "2017-08-04T13:31:11Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > Jail? > > [Union grievance leading to reinstatement with payment of lost wages is more likely](https://www.adn.com/nation-world/2017/08/03/fired-and-rehired-hundreds-of-officers-fired-for-misconduct-returned-to-policing/). :: sigh:: fuck this world. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2017, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11015 "2017-08-04T14:12:03Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > I’m not so much anti-union in theory as against most of the things they do in practice these days, such as fight to prevent bad employees being sacked, and giving huge amounts of money to those who run them, at the expense of the workers they claim to be representing. I don’t believe they have much of a function these days, when so many health and safety laws exist to protect workers, and minimum wage laws ensure they are paid, but they are the reason these laws exist. I’d have more time for them if they worked harder to protect people who are actually discriminated against, such as gay or trans people, rather than fighting for the rights of bad workers. > > I just find it amusing that so many people here who are usually strongly pro-union are so against the police union. Presumably it’s because the consequences are so obvious, rather than the more subtle economic and social damage many unions do. Huh, you really do have some strong feelings about unions. Strong enough that you will make stuff up to disparage them. You should try actually looking into what unions actually do before you go off on your lying tirades, as you are obviously ridiculously ignorant about them. While I will agree that there are times when the union protects a worker against a legitimate dismissal, they also protect workers against illegitimate dismissals, and there is often a fine line between the two. All those protections you mentioned in your post got put into place because of unions, and it is the erosion of unions that is causing those protections to weaken. Your assertion that they do not fight for the rights of minority and marginalized employees, but only protect the bad ones shows off not just your ignorance, and not just your stupidity, but also your unreasoning hatred of that which goes beyond your very limited capability to comprehend, which is why you have so much hatred for so much of the world, it is such a confusing and terrifying place for you. The difference between worker unions and police unions, is that the labor union protects a worker from retaliation from a supervisor if the supervisor has a personal disagreement with them. If the union over protects a slacking worker, or even a bad worker, then production may be a bit lower than the company would wish, and that’s not optimal. There are many legitimate things that could be said to improve union relations, but if you got your desire to unilaterally remove all the worker protections they provide, it would cuase far more harm than good. When the police union forces police departments to rehire police who have been convicted of committing crimes while wearing the uniform, that causes a bit more problem. The police unions aren’t doing anything about worker protections there. You know police often work 12 hour shifts, 64 hours+ a week? If the police unions wanted to actually protect the police, they would lobby for better pay and shorter hours, not keeping cops who have killed or raped or otherwise abused their authority. Unions are made of the employees who are in them. They vote on the union leaders and the union policies. If cops wish to improve their community relations, they will elect union leaders who do not insist on putting bad cops back on the streets. This is why I have a problem with the police, they are electing leaders who ensure that dangerous cops stay on the streets. If labor union workers elect leaders that protect employees that slack off, it’s not optimal for the bottom line of the company, but it doesn’t result in people getting shot or raped, or sodomized with construction tools by those employees. It doesn’t result in community unrest. You tell me, if you think that labor unions are as bad as police unions as far as protecting a bad worker, what other labor union insists that an employee be issued a badge and a gun after being convicted of sexually assaulting a woman in a police car? See, here’s the problem with your constant fallacious logic. There is actual nuance to things. Sometimes, an organization can do good things at the same as doing bad. Your insistence that if they do any of the bad, they must be vilified, disparaged, and attacked. Your instance that if there is any criticism of any organization, that means that the criticizer wants to unilaterally remove it. So, the thing that you find so amusing in your last paragraph there is that you are utterly incapable of any sort of rational or logical thought, but instead just swing to whateve knee-jerk reaction most closely fits your very limited understanding of a subject. You are laughing at your own ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2017, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11016 "2017-08-04T15:53:26Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > Jail? > > [Union grievance leading to reinstatement with payment of lost wages is more likely](https://www.adn.com/nation-world/2017/08/03/fired-and-rehired-hundreds-of-officers-fired-for-misconduct-returned-to-policing/). Gonna call bullshit on this one. > [@](#): > > In the District, an officer convicted of sexually abusing a young woman in his patrol car was ordered returned to the force in 2015 ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2017, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11017 "2017-08-04T16:01:32Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > Gonna call bullshit on this one. From the original [Washington Post](https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2017/investigations/police-fired-rehired/?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_firedrehired-1225p%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.30209d407ff1) investigation: > [@](#): > > In June 2008, Sugg-Edwards was convicted at a bench trial of misdemeanor sexual abuse. He was sentenced to a 100-day suspended sentence, one year supervised probation and $1,000 in court fees. > > Then-D.C. Police Chief Cathy L. Lanier recommended to the trial board — a group of three officers — that Sugg-Edwards be fired. > > The trial board, however, concluded that firing Sugg-Edwards was too harsh a penalty and recommended a reprimand. Fellow officers testified that Sugg-Edwards had an otherwise clean record, a reputation as a “nice guy” and that the sexual assault was “totally out of Officer Sugg-Edwards’ character,” records show. > > On Sept. 14, 2009, the department’s human resources director decided to fire Sugg-Edwards anyway, saying that the trial board “ignored evidence proving the grievant was guilty” of the misconduct. > > The police union filed an appeal arguing that the D.C. code and municipal regulations barred the department from imposing discipline harsher than what the trial board recommends. > > That appeal was not decided until January 2015, more than five years later. Attorneys for the union and the police department blamed the delay on a backlog of arbitration cases. > > Arbitrator Sean J. Rogers ruled that although there was enough evidence to prove Sugg-Edwards’s misconduct, the union’s contention was correct. Rogers ordered Sugg-Edwards reinstated with back pay and benefits. > > City officials tried again to keep him off the force: They appealed the arbitrator’s ruling to the Public Employee Relations Board, which resolves disputes between the District and labor organizations. The department argued that it had the authority to fire the officer, even if the trial board disagreed. > > The review board upheld the arbitrator’s original ruling in April 2015. > > The police department then appealed the review board’s decision in court. The case is pending. The guy is currently off the force, and has been since the initial firing, but if the arbitrator and review board’s decisions are upheld in the pending court case, he will return to the force, with all eight years of back pay. The story contains more details about the specifics of the sexual abuse case. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2017, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11018 "2017-08-04T16:25:03Z")
[Colorado Springs impound stolen Crown Vic for evidence, let it sit for a month, then planned to sell it at auction rather than returning it.](http://www.koaa.com/story/35960936/news-5-investigatespolice-planned-to-sell-crime-victims-car-at-auction-instead-of-returning-it) ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2017, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11019 "2017-08-04T17:25:54Z")
> [@Skywatcher](#): > > [Colorado Springs impound stolen Crown Vic for evidence, let it sit for a month, then planned to sell it at auction rather than returning it.](http://www.koaa.com/story/35960936/news-5-investigatespolice-planned-to-sell-crime-victims-car-at-auction-instead-of-returning-it) If you don’t want your car stolen by the police, then don’t let it get stolen by criminals. Happy that it got worked out, but how many times has it not worked out for an individual who is being abused by the police department in this way? Going to the news can help, but if you are not a sympathetic demographic, or if your story isn’t very good, or if you have any sort of past history, they aren’t going to want to touch it. Most people would pay the $178 extortion fee the police were charging and be glad they got their car back at all without getting shot, that’s what the police are counting on. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2017, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11020 "2017-08-04T17:40:56Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > If you don’t want your car stolen by the police, then don’t let it get stolen by criminals. A friend’s car was stolen and recovered in Philadelphia years ago. When he arrived at the police impound lot they had just closed, but he could see his car from the gate. He returned the next day to retrieve the vehicle and his expensive wheel covers were gone. They were there the previous afternoon. The police denied responsibility, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2017, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11021 "2017-08-04T22:15:30Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > From the original [Washington Post](https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2017/investigations/police-fired-rehired/?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_firedrehired-1225p%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.30209d407ff1) investigation:The guy is currently off the force, and has been since the initial firing, but if the arbitrator and review board’s decisions are upheld in the pending court case, he will return to the force, with all eight years of back pay. > > The story contains more details about the specifics of the sexual abuse case. I thought **Steophan** was nuts about his anti-union stance. Now I am not so sure. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=550) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=552)