# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 556
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2017, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11102 "2017-08-22T01:48:20Z")
Some cops will kill people, and some of those will - and should - keep their jobs. Others will - and should, obviously - go to prison for a long time. The vast majority will shoot no-one, but instead will work hard to make society a better, fairer and more pleasant place for everyone - even bigots like you. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2017, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11103 "2017-08-22T04:55:53Z")
Didn’t we go over the whole “ **Steophan** is a shitty troll” business a few pages back? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2017, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11104 "2017-08-22T10:43:49Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > It has nothing with being alt-right. It is a serious disconnect with blacks and the community. Why does all the impetus for change need to be from the citizens paying for their welfare? If the blacks want better treatment, then they need to treat the community better. > > Exactly the fucking same, you fascist. Telling slave-masters they need to treat slaves better is not the same as telling slaves they need to treat slave-masters better. Two groups are not always comparable. Over 50% of black people report personally having been mistreated by police at some point in their lives. Unless you believe that black people are much, much more likely to lie or be inaccurate about how they are treated than others, then there is a significant problem of police mistreating black people. It’s entirely reasonable to focus on the group that includes the mistreaters rather than the group that includes the mistreated when trying to fix this problem. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2017, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11105 "2017-08-22T11:40:47Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Telling slave-masters they need to treat slaves better is not the same as telling slaves they need to treat slave-masters better. Two groups are not always comparable. > > Over 50% of black people report personally having been mistreated by police at some point in their lives. Unless you believe that black people are much, much more likely to lie or be inaccurate about how they are treated than others, then there is a significant problem of police mistreating black people. It’s entirely reasonable to focus on the group that includes the mistreaters rather than the group that includes the mistreated when trying to fix this problem. That’s how to make the argument from your side without saying the police are sub-human scum. I know we’ve had our disagreements, but this was a good post, and hopefully other people here can see the difference between what you said and what they did. To be clear, again, my point is that the language that many people are using to describe the police closely mirrors that of racists and bigots, not that I support either view. ---
**Author:** ![UCBearcats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/77aa72/32.png) [@UCBearcats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UCBearcats)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2017, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11106 "2017-08-22T11:59:16Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > That’s how to make the argument from your side without saying the police are sub-human scum. I know we’ve had our disagreements, but this was a good post, and hopefully other people here can see the difference between what you said and what they did. > > To be clear, again, my point is that the language that many people are using to describe the police closely mirrors that of racists and bigots, not that I support either view. So we can advocate for change as long as we don’t say things to make the cops feel bad or less human? ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2017, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11107 "2017-08-22T12:26:18Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > A response I wrote: > Dear NY Police Union, > > You complain that when I look at you, I “only see blue”. Yeah. No kidding. The risk of interacting with the police is completely different from interacting with anyone else. If an encounter with a police officer goes sour, I could end up jailed, assaulted, or dead. My rights may be trampled at a moment’s notice, and if they are, you, the police union, will be there to help prevent any justice. This video is a spectacular display of chutzpah, given that your union is directly responsible for keeping bad cops on the streets and police unions across the country have gone to bat for abusive and murderous cops. > > You want people to see more than the uniform? You’re going to have to do better. You’re going to have to ensure that the cops who tackle pregnant women to the ground for _no reason_, the cops who rack up dozens of complaints before being caught on video assaulting civilians, the cops who plant evidence, harass storeowners, and tamper with videocameras, and the cops who either do not know or do not care about the rights of civilians are off the streets. Because here’s the thing - whether an encounter with a police officer goes sour is almost entirely out of my hands. If a cop is having a bad day and wants to take it out on me… Well, I’m screwed. And your job is in no small part ensuring that cops like that remain out on the streets. > > I see the uniform before I see the person because that is the reality you force us into. Because if I see the uniform too late, it could mean the end of my life, or the end of my freedom. Because the uniform implies power, and _every interaction is inherently colored by that power dynamic_. You should get this. You _need_ to get this. > > Sincerely, > A concerned citizen. In this quote: apparently a letter calling cops sub-human scum. I mean, I didn’t mean that when I wrote it and I sure don’t see where one could imply that, but I guess it’s there. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2017, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11108 "2017-08-22T12:31:14Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > That’s how to make the argument from your side without saying the police are sub-human scum. I know we’ve had our disagreements, but this was a good post, and hopefully other people here can see the difference between what you said and what they did. > > To be clear, again, my point is that the language that many people are using to describe the police closely mirrors that of racists and bigots, not that I support either view. Quote anyone who said that cops are sub-human scum. Now, the idea you have in your head that anyone who isn’t lickoing the boots of the police thinks that they are sub-human scum colors your perception here, so you probably interpret any sort of disagreement or criticism of the police as mirroring that of bigots, but that is not in any way, shape or form, what people are actually saying. And your “mirroring of racists and bigots” is doubly stupid. “I don’t like people who punch me in the face” Your reply here, “Oh, replace ‘people who punch me in the face’ with ‘black people’, and now you are mirroring the language of a racist.” Of course if someone is complaining about the actions of a person or group of people who are doing something specific that they don’t like, and you replace the name of the group and the actions, you can apply it to anyone at all. You might as well say that saying that you think that serial murderers should be locked up is the same language used when you say that a particular ethnicity should be genocide. Just in case you thought that that argumentative technique was actually an honest “gotcha”, you should be aware that it just makes you look pathetic. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2017, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11109 "2017-08-22T12:32:28Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > In this quote: apparently a letter calling cops sub-human scum. I mean, I didn’t mean that when I wrote it and I sure don’t see where one could imply that, but I guess it’s there. You admit you “see only blue”. Compare that to if someone were to say they “saw only black”. You are _literally_ denying their humanity. That you are unable to see a professional doing their job as a fellow human is your problem,not anyone else’s. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2017, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11110 "2017-08-22T12:54:44Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > You admit you “see only blue”. Compare that to if someone were to say they “saw only black”. You are _literally_ denying their humanity. > > That you are unable to see a professional doing their job as a fellow human is your problem,not anyone else’s. Can they take the blue off? Can they put on regular street clothes, and walk about the community without anyone seeing blue at all? Could a cop quit being a cop, and never be seen as blue again? Yes, they can. Can a black person take their black off? No they cannot. You seeing the difference? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2017, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11111 "2017-08-22T13:14:14Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Can they take the blue off? Can they put on regular street clothes, and walk about the community without anyone seeing blue at all? Could a cop quit being a cop, and never be seen as blue again? > > Yes, they can. > > Can a black person take their black off? > > No they cannot. > > You seeing the difference? More excuses for bigotry. Can a gay person hide their sexuality? Yes, they can - doesn’t make homophobia acceptable. Anyway, you are still missing the point. This isn’t about an equivalence between black people and the police, it’s about an equivalence between racists and those who reflexively hate the police. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2017, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11112 "2017-08-22T13:54:53Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > More excuses for bigotry. Can a gay person hide their sexuality? Yes, they can - doesn’t make homophobia acceptable. > > Anyway, you are still missing the point. This isn’t about an equivalence between black people and the police, it’s about an equivalence between racists and those who reflexively hate the police. As there aren’t any people in this thread who reflexively hate the police, then it sounds like you are done here. If you find some people that reflexively hate the police, then you can go call them racists. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2017, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11113 "2017-08-22T14:00:10Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Anyway, you are still missing the point. This isn’t about an equivalence between black people and the police, it’s about an equivalence between racists and those who reflexively hate the police. They don’t hate all police - just the bad ones. Just because [del]black people[/del] police commit so many crimes, and [del]blacktivists[/del] union officials mispresent those crimes, and defend the [del]black[/del] police criminals, is no reason to hate all [del]black people[/del] police. [del]Black people[/del] police need to do better. That’s all. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2017, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11114 "2017-08-22T14:26:36Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > As there aren’t any people in this thread who reflexively hate the police, then it sounds like you are done here. > > If you find some people that reflexively hate the police, then you can go call them racists. Yeah, the ones who live in their town, who they deal with regularly, are fine. It’s those violent ones in the poor areas of the cities that are the problem. If only they’d all act like the good ones. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2017, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11115 "2017-08-22T14:27:20Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > As there aren’t any people in this thread who reflexively hate the police, then it sounds like you are done here. > > If you find some people that reflexively hate the police, then you can go call them racists. Careerists? Jobists? Being one of the very few bad cops is not a race, so it is hard to see the word racist applying. Similarly, being one of the vast majority of good cops that protects the very few bad cops is also not a race. There must be a better term for what **Steophan** is describing. Bigotry kind of works. I think a better term is fear; people are afraid of police and tired of being subjugated by them. Especially African American people. They are not afraid of all police, just the bad ones. Just the officers with a chip on their shoulder and something to prove. Unfortunately, all the police wear the blue uniform and the good ones, the ones that can be counted on to serve and protect in most circumstances, will sit and watch as the officer with a chip on his shoulder sics his dog on you. Or kicks you in the face as you are kneeling with your hands on you head. Or punches you multiple times even though you are contained with 4 other officers kneeling on your body. Or will use pepper spray on you as you are restrained. Or will shoot you with little provocation. There are many examples in this thread of police unjustly brutalizing the citizens they are sworn to protect. Remember, even the criminals in this country are citizens and are protected under the law. Still, I have to agree with **Steophan** than many people have a fear (hatred? no, too much of a stretch for the majority of people) of police, but I think many people have a reason to. If I was black and my child was having a mental health issue, I would not call the police or paramedics (the police come when you call an ambulance). **Steophan** , if you were black and it was your son, would you call them? Would you be afraid? Even being a upper middle class white suburban dad, I am not sure I would want to have the police involved with my family as I don’t think they are my friends. Does this mean I am bigoted? Or does this mean that the police, after years of collecting military grade weapons and deploying that at the least opportunity, has a public relations problem that they need to address? I think the latter. It may have worked back in the sixties man-handling and brutalizing the petty criminals and their friends, but in these days with cameras on every corner and in every pocket, police need to come up with a new strategy and need to work to earn the trust of those they protect. So far, they do not believe that this is a necessary component of their job. **Steophan** seems to agree with this perspective; that the police should be trusted as a matter of course. I think the majority, or at least a plurality, of people think the government (including the police) needs to demonstrate that we can trust them ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2017, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11116 "2017-08-22T15:12:08Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > They don’t hate all police - just the bad ones. > > Just because [del]black people[/del] police commit so many crimes, and [del]blacktivists[/del] union officials mispresent those crimes, and defend the [del]black[/del] police criminals, is no reason to hate all [del]black people[/del] police. [del]Black people[/del] police need to do better. That’s all. > > Regards, > Shodan We don’t hate any police, just disapprove of their actions when they abuse their authority. We have some suggestions that may improve their relations with the community they are supposed to serve. That’s not hate. That’s not discrimination. To even try to equate it to the type of treatment that minorities get every day, in their job or out, with no respite against it, is a reprehensibly disingenuous attempt at an arguement. How often have you had “suggestions” for the black community or other minorities or marginalized demographics that would help them to improve their relationship with the greater community? Do you give those suggestions because you hate those minorities? Actually, now that I think of it, that actually may very well be the case. You hate the minorities that you make “suggestions” to, and so when you see someone making suggestions to another group on how they could improve their behavior to improve their relations with the community, you see that as an act of hate. Is that what is going on here? I can think of no other way that you can interpret “Stop killing and abusing the people that you are supposed to be serving and protecting” as hate than it being you assuming that others criticize out of the same hateful motivations as you do. Do you have another explanation as to why you keep insisting that any criticism is equal to hate? > [@Steophan](#): > > Yeah, the ones who live in their town, who they deal with regularly, are fine. It’s those violent ones in the poor areas of the cities that are the problem. If only they’d all act like the good ones. It’s the ones that rape women who call them to report a break-in, it’s the ones that beat up a person for sitting on his mother’s porch, it’s the ones that beat a man in the street for no reason at all. It is you who generalize bad cops to all cops. I have a problem with cops who perform specific actions that are detrimental to those around them. That you then say that that means that I have a problem with all cops means that you assume that they are all detrimental to those around them. So, why do you think that all cops are corrupt, incompetent, and/or crooked? Those are the only ones being complained about, so why do you keep dragging in cops who are just doing their jobs diligently? ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2017, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11117 "2017-08-22T15:16:55Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Yes, if you treat the cops like subhumans you are the one likely to get hurt, unlike with the fascists who are more likely to hurt others. Doesn’t make you any better than them, just slightly less dangerous. > > And if you were actually capable of reading, you’d notice I didn’t call \*you \*the alt-right, just that you are no better than them. > > I’m not sure whether I find it more hilarious or terrifying that in this thread, and the various anti-free speech threads, that the ultra-lefties on here are finally showing their true colours, and look just the same as the far right nutters. I just hope you both burn out soon and some vaguely centrist views come to the fore. You fascist, police state lovin’, boot licking, toady. You are as far from Centrist as that asswipe Duterte for chrissake. Your really are two peas in a pod. That’s all I have to say, and frankly you aren’t even worth THAT much effort. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2017, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11118 "2017-08-22T15:31:04Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > You fascist, police state lovin’, boot licking, toady. You are as far from Centrist as that asswipe Duterte for chrissake. Your really are two peas in a pod. > > That’s all I have to say, and frankly you aren’t even worth THAT much effort. Calling someone standing up against bigotry a fascist isn’t going to work, you know. It just makes you look silly, as silly as the people on the right who simultaneously call their opponents “communists” and “like Hitler”. You need to ditch your prejudice against upstanding members of the community just because a few of them are criminals, and you don’t like their clothing. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2017, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11119 "2017-08-22T15:39:42Z")
> [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](#): > > **Steophan** seems to agree with this perspective; that the police should be trusted as a matter of course. I think that to mistrust, or fear, or hate them more than you would any other group of people is bigotry. People who fear an interaction with the police, just as those who fear an interaction with a black person, a Muslim, or a homosexual, are not judging that person by who they are, but by the actions of other members of their group (or the group the fearing person assigns them to). That is, quite literally, prejudice. Any police officer is extremely unlikely to shoot you, but it happens. Any given Muslim is extremely unlikely to blow you up. Any given homosexual is extremely unlikely to molest your son, and so on. The language being used, the type of fear expressed, and the proposed solutions to the problem are _identical_ to those used by racists and homophobes. “The police Unions must be stopped, but other Unions are OK” is exactly equivalent to “Mosques are bad, but Churches or Temples are fine”. “Some cops are fine, I only hate the bad ones” is identical to “Some black men are fine, I only hate the criminals”. People here have demonstrated that they are exactly what they claim to hate,and it’s hilarious. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2017, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11120 "2017-08-22T15:42:07Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Calling someone standing up against bigotry a fascist isn’t going to work, you know. Calling someone standing up against fascism a bigot, however, always a winning move. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2017, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11121 "2017-08-22T15:43:25Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Calling someone standing up against bigotry a fascist isn’t going to work, you know. It just makes you look silly, as silly as the people on the right who simultaneously call their opponents “communists” and “like Hitler”. > > You need to ditch your prejudice against upstanding members of the community just because a few of them are criminals, and you don’t like their clothing. You have yet to show that you are standing up against bigotry. You have done no such thing. You have only defended and cheered for police as they harm the communities that they are supposed to be protecting. You have broad-brushed the police, for when we talk about specific acts of violence, you apply those to all the police. So, it really is your bigotry that is out on display here. Bigotry and authoritarianism combined, in fact. A bigot and an authoritarian is not necessarily a fascist, but it is certainly two of the major pillars you got covered there. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=555) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=557)