# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 558
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2017, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11142 "2017-08-22T17:54:18Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Have you suffered a recent head injury? > > Regards, > Shodan If I had, would that you be discriminating against the mentally disabled, or are you just throwing out hate for those with traumatic brain injuries for no good reason here? I take it you cannot address or refute any of what I said, so you just resort to pathetically attempting to level insults? Too bad you’re actually even worse at that than you are at presenting an actual argument. Can you explain why you expressed the criticism of the way that some police perform their jobs as hate? Can you then explain why you said you have never said that criticism is hate? I do not believe that you can explain both. That is because you are intellectually dishonest, and morally bankrupt. This allows you to have such a disconnect, where you make a specific claim in one post, then deny you ever made the claim in another. Your words are recorded. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2017, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11143 "2017-08-22T18:18:49Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > You admit you “see only blue”. Compare that to if someone were to say they “saw only black”. You are _literally_ denying their humanity. > > That you are unable to see a professional doing their job as a fellow human is your problem,not anyone else’s. When you interact with your boss, do you see first and foremost the person, or the fact that if he wanted to, he could end your career? When you’re on the stand before a judge, do you see first and foremost the person, or the power they wield? When a man hiding his face behind a blue cap and handkerchief is pointing a gun at you, _do you see the person_, or do you see the fact that if you don’t get your ass down on the ground, you will fucking _die_? Power dynamics matter. > [@Shodan](#): > > They don’t hate all police - just the bad ones. > > Just because [del]black people[/del] police commit so many crimes, and [del]blacktivists[/del] union officials mispresent those crimes, and defend the [del]black[/del] police criminals, is no reason to hate all [del]black people[/del] police. [del]Black people[/del] police need to do better. That’s all. > > Regards, > Shodan I expect this shit from **Steophan**. I need to stop expecting better from you. Do you understand the difference in the power dynamic between you and a cop and you and a random black person? It’s not hard to grasp. Get pulled over sometime, you’ll figure it out _real_ quick. Even ignoring the whole “cops can stop being cops” thing, the power dynamic is there. We have to hold them to a higher standard. Ever had a shitty boss? Now imagine that boss can not just fire you but imprison you, assault you, or even kill you with near-impunity. Yeah. That ain’t good. And it’s just common sense - any individual interaction with an on-duty police officer has the potential to be _extremely dangerous_ for anyone who is not a cop, and should therefore be treated the same way as a meeting with a mafia don - short, polite, and _rare_. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2017, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11144 "2017-08-22T18:58:03Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > If I had, would that you be discriminating against the mentally disabled, or are you just throwing out hate for those with traumatic brain injuries for no good reason here? > > I take it you cannot address or refute any of what I said, so you just resort to pathetically attempting to level insults? > > Too bad you’re actually even worse at that than you are at presenting an actual argument. > > Can you explain why you expressed the criticism of the way that some police perform their jobs as hate? > > Can you then explain why you said you have never said that criticism is hate? > > I do not believe that you can explain both. That is because you are intellectually dishonest, and morally bankrupt. This allows you to have such a disconnect, where you make a specific claim in one post, then deny you ever made the claim in another. Your words are recorded. I’ll take that as a Yes. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2017, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11145 "2017-08-22T19:50:09Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I’ll take that as a Yes. > > Regards, > Shodan Put you down for another lie then? ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2017, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11146 "2017-08-22T20:03:52Z")
“Blue lives matter” was the tone deaf response to the Black Lives Matter "movement, which was protesting the unchecked actions of certain police officers. Now we have “blue racism”. Uh huh. **Blue is not a race. What a stupid thing to even HAVE to point out.** From Sgt Hugh Barry, who killed Deborah Danner, a 66-year-old schizophrenic black woman, in her apartment: “Because I am blue, I am vilified.” No, you and your kind are vilified - in normal parlance, being held accountable like anyone in any job that’s not outside and above the law - for killing a 66-year-old schizophrenic black woman, in her apartment, for no good reason. One horrifying case of cruelty and racism against cops was (oh the horror) some guy refused to sell them DONUTS. Oh the cruelty of it all! Wearing the uniform of a job willfully chosen - a job you can quit any time, - is different from skin color. And that unless you’re “born a police,” "That is not a blue life. That is a blue suit. If you don’t like it, take that suit off and find a new job. Or just do the job RIGHT. **The best refutation of the premise came this weekend in Brooklyn, when dozens of NYPD officers, almost all black, gathered to support Colin Kaepernick, the NFL quarterback who has found himself unemployable after repeatedly taking a knee during the National Anthem to protest police brutality against his own. Kaepernick is being blackballed, said NYPD Sgt. Edwin Raymond, for daring to raise “the issue of racism in America and policing in America…for speaking the obvious truth” - being black and suffering at the hands of blue.** ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2017, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11147 "2017-08-22T21:51:03Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Please try to respond to my exact words. I always do. You just don’t like the responses, and rather than deal with them, you claim this. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2017, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11148 "2017-08-22T21:57:10Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > That’s fucking pathetic. You are blaming a slave for being bigoted against his master? My god, you are so full of shit. The equivalent would be blaming a slave for being bigoted against all white people, as _a few_ of them were slave masters. Given the specific circumstances at the time, I wouldn’t even blame a slave for feeling that way, but this is not that time, and the relationship between bad cops and the public is nothing like that between master and slave. The biggest difference being that the bad acts by bad cops are illegal, and are treated as such for the most part. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2017, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11149 "2017-08-22T22:01:49Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > I always do. You just don’t like the responses, and rather than deal with them, you claim this. No you don’t – sometimes you misinterpret. That’s a normal human thing that we all sometimes do. In the last few posts, you’ve misinterpreted or mischaracterized my words. I’m happy to continue if you want to try again. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2017, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11150 "2017-08-22T22:04:39Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > The equivalent would be blaming a slave for being bigoted against all white people, as _a few_ of them were slave masters. > > Given the specific circumstances at the time, I wouldn’t even blame a slave for feeling that way, but this is not that time, and the relationship between bad cops and the public is nothing like that between master and slave. The biggest difference being that the bad acts by bad cops are illegal, and are treated as such for the most part. I don’t think we’re talking about bigotry – we’re talking about trauma. Mistreatment by law enforcement (especially when it goes unsanctioned) can be traumatic in ways that can have long-term effects on one’s psyche, in addition to the reasonable concerns such incidents cause in the community. If so, this is entirely the fault of the cops who mistreated people, as well as other cops who knew about this mistreatment but didn’t do their utmost to either stop it when it happened or report it afterwards, up to and including informing the media if the conventional ways of reporting bad behavior did not work. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2017, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11151 "2017-08-23T04:58:03Z")
12-year-old kid [arrested](http://www.chicagotribune.com/suburbs/evanston/news/ct-evr-evanston-bicycle-arrest-tl-0824-20170818-story.html) (!!!) for riding on the back of a bicycle that was ridden (by his friend) through a red light, in downtown Evanston, Illinois. Who the fuck arrests a kid for riding a bike (and he wasn’t even the one in control of the bike) through a red light? Hell, car drivers don’t generally get arrested for running a red light; it’s a traffic citation. Evanston is about two-thirds white. Take a guess at whether the arrested kid is part of that majority group. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2017, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11152 "2017-08-23T05:21:07Z")
[Because of “quotas”, New York City keeps people in jail _who they know are innocent_.](https://medium.com/@ShaunKing/soul-snatchers-how-the-nypds-42nd-precinct-the-bronx-da-s-office-and-the-city-of-new-york-7454a5a43924) ---
**Author:** ![UCBearcats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/77aa72/32.png) [@UCBearcats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UCBearcats)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2017, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11153 "2017-08-23T12:07:43Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > 12-year-old kid [arrested](http://www.chicagotribune.com/suburbs/evanston/news/ct-evr-evanston-bicycle-arrest-tl-0824-20170818-story.html) (!!!) for riding on the back of a bicycle that was ridden (by his friend) through a red light, in downtown Evanston, Illinois. > > Who the fuck arrests a kid for riding a bike (and he wasn’t even the one in control of the bike) through a red light? Hell, car drivers don’t generally get arrested for running a red light; it’s a traffic citation. > > Evanston is about two-thirds white. Take a guess at whether the arrested kid is part of that majority group. Did the kid lose the bike to civil forfeiture? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2017, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11154 "2017-08-23T12:28:45Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > [Because of “quotas”, New York City keeps people in jail _who they know are innocent_.](https://medium.com/@ShaunKing/soul-snatchers-how-the-nypds-42nd-precinct-the-bronx-da-s-office-and-the-city-of-new-york-7454a5a43924) Assuming that this practice is true, and I don’t know what Shaun King’s journalism credentials are, I wonder how the police apologists will justify this. Probably with lies and trolling, like they always do. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2017, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11155 "2017-08-23T12:34:32Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Even ignoring the whole “cops can stop being cops” thing, the power dynamic is there. We have to hold them to a higher standard. Tell us more about this higher standard, and how it should be implemented. If a cop is accused of a crime, should he not be presumed innocent? Should he not have the assistance of counsel? Should the jury be instructed that, in light of the fact that he is a cop, he is to be assumed to be lying? Should anyone who testifies be disbelieved (if the testimony would tend to exonerate the cop)? Should the police union not act on the behalf of its members? Should cops be fired without due process, and without following the established procedures? > [@](#): > > And it’s just common sense - any individual interaction with an on-duty police officer has the potential to be _extremely dangerous_ for anyone who is not a cop, and should therefore be treated the same way as a meeting with a mafia don - short, polite, and _rare_. Correct, especially the rare part. And it’s just common sense - any individual interaction with a black male has the potential to be life-threatening, much more than with a cop. Therefore one should treat interactions with black men as one would treat a Mafia don. Avoid them at all costs. Right? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2017, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11156 "2017-08-23T12:57:56Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Tell us more about this higher standard, and how it should be implemented. This is a difficult question, and the answers have fuck-all to do with most of your facile strawman. Do you care what my answers are? Because if so, I’ll spend some time thinking about it and give you a real answer. But nothing you’ve said indicates that you have any interest in listening to my answer, or the answers of other, smarter people who have dealt with exactly this issue. Case in point: > [@](#): > > And it’s just common sense - any individual interaction with a black male has the potential to be life-threatening, much more than with a cop. Therefore one should treat interactions with black men as one would treat a Mafia don. Avoid them at all costs. Right? > > Regards, > Shodan What’s the power dynamic between you and a typical black person? Do you feel obliged to do everything they say to the letter lest they shoot you? Could they ruin or end your life with little to no repercussion? Did you read the post I made, or did you just round to the nearest cliche? I mean, it’s not like anyone was in this thread earlier, arguing that police have a monopoly on legal force or anything like that… Right **Steophan**? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2017, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11157 "2017-08-23T13:49:36Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Tell us more about this higher standard, and how it should be implemented. If a cop is accused of a crime, should he not be presumed innocent? Should he not have the assistance of counsel? Should the jury be instructed that, in light of the fact that he is a cop, he is to be assumed to be lying? Should anyone who testifies be disbelieved (if the testimony would tend to exonerate the cop)? Should the police union not act on the behalf of its members? Should cops be fired without due process, and without following the established procedures? > Correct, especially the rare part. If you have really not been following the thread, then I will reiterate what I think the problems are, and ways of solving them. But, mainly, it comes down to those investigating and prosecuting police misconduct. They are the colleagues and friends of the accused. Prosecutors act as defense attorneys in the grand jury process, and do not zealously prosecute them they would if it were a civilian. A different problem does come to the way that society sees cops, and for some reason, it is hard to find 12 random people, where at least one of them is not a cop defender who will refuse to convict no matter what. That’s how we’ve gotten these hung juries and mistrials of late. In the Shlager case, the cop decided to plead guilty, rather than go through the trial again, in the Cincinnati case, after the prosecutor decided not to retry it, the cop is free, and is being considered for re-hire. Even if there were no malice involved in these shootings (and it’s hard to argue that planting evidence on a body that you just dropped is lacking malice), these cops still showed a complete lack of ability in their jobs. In any other job, if you fuck up in a way that costs someone else their life, you’re not going to be working there anymore. As a cop, not a problem. And that is only counting the cases where cops kill. They harass, dehumanize, rape, and torture the people in their communities with near complete immunity from consequence. So, that is a position that you can actually argue against. If you insist on arguing against the strawmen that you dropped in that post, then you and Steve Bannon should join a club. > [@](#): > > And it’s just common sense - any individual interaction with a black male has the potential to be life-threatening, much more than with a cop. Therefore one should treat interactions with black men as one would treat a Mafia don. Avoid them at all costs. Right? > > Regards, > Shodan No, if a black man breaks down my door in the middle of the night, and charges into my room, pointing flashlights and guns at my face, I can shoot him from my bed, and be perfectly fine as self-defense. If a cop does the same thing, then if I am really lucky, then I will survive until I am tried for murdering a cop. If a black man pulls up behind me and tells me to pull over, I can ignore him. Can I ignore a cop, when they tell me to pull over? If I am walking down the street, and a black man asks me to stop and answer a few questions, I can stroll on by, not giving him the time of day. A cop will probably not be so kind as to let me go on my way. If I am talking to a black man, and I pull out my cell phone to make a call, and he shoots me, that would be murder, and he would go to jail. If I am talking to a cop, and I pull out a cell phone to make a call, he can shoot me, and claim that he was in fear for his life. Do you get paid to be a black male? Are you only a black male while you are on the shift? Can you take off your black male uniform, and go out in public, with no one knowing that you are a black male? If you get fed up with the shit that people give you for being a black male, can you quit, and find another ethnicity that you prefer? Can you be a black male for 20 years and retire with a full pension? Your attempt at treating cops as a race is an utter failure. Do you really think that being a cop is anything like being a marginalized minority? I am not sure if your line of argument makes you a racist, or an idiot, or both. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2017, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11158 "2017-08-23T13:59:03Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > This is a difficult question, and the answers have fuck-all to do with most of your facile strawman. Do you care what my answers are? Because if so, I’ll spend some time thinking about it and give you a real answer. If you would rather discuss this somewhere other than the Pit, feel free. Because I think the answers have a great deal to do with the issue. OTOH - fair warning - > [@](#): > > Did you read the post I made, or did you just round to the nearest cliche? I intend to steal this without attribution. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2017, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11159 "2017-08-23T14:59:07Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > [Because of “quotas”, New York City keeps people in jail _who they know are innocent_.](https://medium.com/@ShaunKing/soul-snatchers-how-the-nypds-42nd-precinct-the-bronx-da-s-office-and-the-city-of-new-york-7454a5a43924) Fyi, part 2 is out today: [https://medium.com/@ShaunKing/soul-snatchers-part-two-the-bronx-terrorist-detective-david-terrell-38be8bc35995](https://medium.com/@ShaunKing/soul-snatchers-part-two-the-bronx-terrorist-detective-david-terrell-38be8bc35995) ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2017, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11160 "2017-08-23T15:08:51Z")
> [@Sinaptics](#): > > Fyi, part 2 is out today: [https://medium.com/@ShaunKing/soul-snatchers-part-two-the-bronx-terrorist-detective-david-terrell-38be8bc35995](https://medium.com/@ShaunKing/soul-snatchers-part-two-the-bronx-terrorist-detective-david-terrell-38be8bc35995) I am not asking this to tear him down, but I am curious as to the overall credentials and credibility of this author. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2017, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11161 "2017-08-23T15:27:25Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > OTOH - fair warning -I intend to steal this without attribution. I did it first. 😛 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=557) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=559)