# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 565
**Author:** ![UCBearcats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/77aa72/32.png) [@UCBearcats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UCBearcats)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2017, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11282 "2017-09-01T02:06:53Z")
> [@Crazy\_Canuck](#): > > He retired before they could fire him, the fucking coward. > > [Georgia Officer Who Said "We Only Kill Black People" Resigns As Department Moves To Fire Him](https://www.buzzfeed.com/briannasacks/georgia-officer-resigns?utm_term=.ffZ2B1lan#.yjDk9wp3b) He retired so he can collect his pension. ---
**Author:** ![Projammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/projammer/32/559_2.png) [@Projammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Projammer)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2017, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11283 "2017-09-01T04:02:29Z")
Or be rehired somewhere else without having a fired-for-cause on his record. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2017, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11284 "2017-09-01T04:10:00Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > I’ve not called you a Nazi. So I’ll give you a chance here. You didn’t disavow the actual claim, which was calling you antisemitic. No, I ignored the claim, if that’s what was meant by those posts, because it was incoherent, unsupported, and ultimately irrelevant. > [@](#): > > Capitalism is not remotely important to modern Nazism. And freedom of speech is something modern Nazis support. And, as pointed out, there are Nazis who are pro-gay, so that doesn’t count, either. > > Nazism is primarily about white supremacy and antisemitism these days. Because those were the big things that actually led to the Holocaust. It is absolutely ridiculous to call someone with views so far removed from actual Nazism a Nazi. Whether it’s you calling them that, or them using the name themselves, it is both wrong and silly. But then, you spend most of your time being both wrong and silly. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2017, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11285 "2017-09-01T04:14:24Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Strong support for free speech, Which you use to call innocent black murder victims “thugs” . > [@](#): > > strong support for the right to be judged in court, not summarily, Except when white people get convicted for murdering black people, when you insist the courts got it wrong. Or when black people defend themselves against police violence, you insist they’re guilt of assault, even after courts refuse to charge. > [@](#): > > All the opposite of nazi values. Yeah. Opposite. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2017, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11286 "2017-09-01T04:51:31Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > Which you use to call innocent black murder victims “thugs” . > > Except when white people get convicted for murdering black people, when you insist the courts got it wrong. Or when black people defend themselves against police violence, you insist they’re guilt of assault, even after courts refuse to charge. > > Yeah. Opposite. You should probably try visiting reality sometime. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2017, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11287 "2017-09-01T05:04:05Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > You should probably try visiting reality sometime. And you should stay away. There’s “thugs” out there. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2017, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11288 "2017-09-01T05:27:16Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > And you should stay away. There’s “thugs” out there. Fortunately the police are still allowed to arrest them, despite your wishes. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2017, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11289 "2017-09-01T05:35:49Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Fortunately the police are still allowed to arrest them, despite your wishes. Yes, they get to denigrate and arrest an entire race of people, innocent or not. Assault and murder them. While wearing spiffy uniforms. While cowardly lickspittles like you cheer them on. Yeah, you’re the opposite of a Nazi alright. ---
**Author:** ![steatopygia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steatopygia/32/3132_2.png) [@steatopygia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steatopygia)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2017, 8:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11290 "2017-09-01T08:11:44Z")
Here is a a little different abuse of authority. At least no one was shot. [Nurse arrested for refusing to break the law.](http://www.sltrib.com/news/2017/08/31/utah-nurse-arrested-after-complying-with-hospital-policy-that-bars-taking-blood-from-unconscious-victim/) [A different video of the same arrest.](http://fox13now.com/2017/08/31/utah-nurse-releases-videos-says-she-was-unlawfully-arrested-and-assaulted-by-slc-police/) I have had the same conversation with police that this nurse did. I have never been threatened with arrest however. Much less forcibly handcuffed. State law varies greatly in these cases. Facility and policy agency protocol also varies hugely. In my experience the police and hospital work out agreements about what is legally expected of each other. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2017, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11291 "2017-09-01T11:43:26Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No, selling a few CDs is a hobby, as is making niche genre music. Advocating for a viewpoint may or may not be a hobby, but it’s certainly a right. Yes, individuals have the right to listen to racist music genres and advocate racist ideas, but people don’t have the right to be employed on the public dime. Police officers operate in the public’s trust and interest. As a taxpayer, as a citizen, I don’t want an officer of the law who even remotely sympathizes with ideas of white supremacy, because it’s common sense that it’s the application of the law that is as important as the laws themselves. Frankly, that you don’t seem to understand this perspective is an appalling lack of awareness. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2017, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11292 "2017-09-01T12:08:20Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > Yes, they get to denigrate and arrest an entire race of people, innocent or not. Assault and murder them. While wearing spiffy uniforms. While cowardly lickspittles like you cheer them on. Yeah, you’re the opposite of a Nazi alright. Again, try visiting reality sometime. The police haven’t been even unofficially allowed to do those things for a very long time, and I don’t support or cheer those that do. The problem you and others have with me is that I don’t support violent resistance of the police. That is a ridiculous thing to support in a country with a functioning legal system - look how much Maricopa County had to pay out to those brutalised by Arpaio. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2017, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11293 "2017-09-01T12:53:55Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Again, try visiting reality sometime. The police haven’t been even unofficially allowed to do those things for a very long time, and I don’t support or cheer those that do. > > The problem you and others have with me is that I don’t support violent resistance of the police. That is a ridiculous thing to support in a country with a functioning legal system - look how much Maricopa County had to pay out to those brutalised by Arpaio. Impressive, in the same post as you try to claim that these things don’t happen, you admit that they do happen. Do you think that getting a settlement makes up for what they went through? Would you sell a loved one for a million dollars? If you say yes, then I understand your perspective. If you are a normal human being and not a sociopath, you would say no. If you said no to the question of whether you would sell a loved one for a million dollars, then how do you think these families feel? You claim they got a payday, so they should be happy and content, and not worry about the fact that the police killed their loved one, and will kill again. Would you let me pay you a hundred thousand dollars to beat you to the point of causing permanent damage? And that is the people who actually did win out in their day in court. For all the times when it was just the officer’s word against the officer’s victim, the officer was believed, and the victim got nothing. So, would you let me beat you dollars for the chance, (we’ll be generous and call it 50/50, though I suspect it is more like a 5% or lower chance of getting legal recognition of the crime against you) of getting some money? Would you let me kill your child for the chance of getting a million dollars? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2017, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11294 "2017-09-01T14:17:52Z")
> [@steatopygia](#): > > Here is a a little different abuse of authority. At least no one was shot… > > State law varies greatly in these cases. Facility and policy agency protocol also varies hugely. In my experience the police and hospital work out agreements about what is legally expected of each other. > [@](#): > > Wubbels says blood cannot be taken from an unconscious patient unless the patient is under arrest, unless there is a warrant allowing the draw or unless the patient consents. The detective acknowledges in the footage that none of those requirements is in place, but he insists that he has the authority to obtain the draw, according to the footage. How _dare_ she follow the law! Is she _blind?_ Could she not understand that she was being _ordered_ to violate the law by a person with _authoriteh?_ Civilians! (What do you mean cops are civilians too? They wear uniforms just _like_ military forces do!) ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2017, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11295 "2017-09-01T14:37:52Z")
I’m reminded of the forced x-rays on Texas a few years back. I don’t recall what happens after. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2017, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11296 "2017-09-01T15:02:45Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Impressive, in the same post as you try to claim that these things don’t happen, you admit that they do happen. I said they are _not allowed_ to happen. > [@](#): > > Do you think that getting a settlement makes up for what they went through? > > Would you sell a loved one for a million dollars? If you say yes, then I understand your perspective. If you are a normal human being and not a sociopath, you would say no. > > If you said no to the question of whether you would sell a loved one for a million dollars, then how do you think these families feel? You claim they got a payday, so they should be happy and content, and not worry about the fact that the police killed their loved one, and will kill again. > > Would you let me pay you a hundred thousand dollars to beat you to the point of causing permanent damage? Obviously not to all of them, but that’s irrelevant. How else do you propose compensating someone for the loss of a family member? > [@](#): > > And that is the people who actually did win out in their day in court. For all the times when it was just the officer’s word against the officer’s victim, the officer was believed, and the victim got nothing. > > So, would you let me beat you dollars for the chance, (we’ll be generous and call it 50/50, though I suspect it is more like a 5% or lower chance of getting legal recognition of the crime against you) of getting some money? Would you let me kill your child for the chance of getting a million dollars? This isn’t about crime, it’s about compensation which is a civil issue, and has a much lower standard of proof. But obviously, without any evidence of who’s telling the truth, there is no preponderance of evidence if it’s he said/she said, so no compensation. Would you really expect it to be otherwise? ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2017, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11297 "2017-09-01T15:17:48Z")
> [@steatopygia](#): > > I have had the same conversation with police that this nurse did. I have never been threatened with arrest however. Much less forcibly handcuffed. > > State law varies greatly in these cases. Facility and policy agency protocol also varies hugely. In my experience the police and hospital work out agreements about what is legally expected of each other. As per the story, the hospital and the police department _have_ an agreement, and the nurse was arrested for following that agreement. The officer lost his temper. There was no excuse for that. He should be facing charges. One of the points in the video was that the U of U police were there and did nothing. I actually worked for the U of U security while I was a student and worked with the police department. It’s a small department and is not really treated with a lot of respect by the Salt Lake City police, who are seen to be “real police.” However, it’s an example of how good police allow bad police to misbehave. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2017, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11298 "2017-09-01T15:40:34Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > I said they are _not allowed_ to happen. But they still happen, right? > [@](#): > > Obviously not to all of them, but that’s irrelevant. > > How else do you propose compensating someone for the loss of a family member? By not killing their family member in the first place. You are the one saying they have nothing to complain about because they got their payday. I’m just disagreeing with you, and saying that a financial compensation does not make up for the damage that is done. > [@](#): > > This isn’t about crime, it’s about compensation which is a civil issue, and has a much lower standard of proof. But obviously, without any evidence of who’s telling the truth, there is no preponderance of evidence if it’s he said/she said, so no compensation. Would you really expect it to be otherwise? Of course not. I expect that the cop will be believed over the victim every single time. That’s the whole problem. It is only in the cases where video evidence proves that the cop is lying out his ass that there is any possibility of compensation, and in those cases, it still takes years, and they don’t always win out anyway, even when it was proven that the cop was lying. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2017, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11299 "2017-09-01T16:46:51Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > But they still happen, right? > … > Of course not. I expect that the cop will be believed over the victim every single time. That’s the whole problem. It is only in the cases where video evidence proves that the cop is lying out his ass that there is any possibility of compensation, and in those cases, it still takes years, and they don’t always win out anyway, even when it was proven that the cop was lying. That is why police and police unions fought to outlaw civilian video recording, and why the so often opposed car-cams and body-cams. But even WITH video, too many still get away with too much. And too many can (and do) turn the cameras on or off, at will. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2017, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11300 "2017-09-01T17:12:50Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > By not killing their family member in the first place. That’s not what compensation means. You seem to think that financial compensation is inadequate, so what do you propose instead? > [@](#): > > You are the one saying they have nothing to complain about because they got their payday. I’m just disagreeing with you, and saying that a financial compensation does not make up for the damage that is done. I’m not saying that, I’m saying that the best that can be done for them is financial compensation, as we have no way of reversing events that have happened. There should also be punitive damages where appropriate to reduce further offences. But, as should be obvious, neither financial penalties, imprisonment, nor even execution completely deter crime. I’m not sure why you think that the police should be uniquely deterred when the rest of humanity isn’t. No matter what safeguards you put in place, harm will be done to people, whether intentionally, through negligence, or purely accidentally. > [@](#): > > Of course not. I expect that the cop will be believed over the victim every single time. That’s the whole problem. It is only in the cases where video evidence proves that the cop is lying out his ass that there is any possibility of compensation, and in those cases, it still takes years, and they don’t always win out anyway, even when it was proven that the cop was lying. That’s one of the main reasons police should wear body cameras, along with the deterrent effect. But you are wrong, if the cop is actually proven to be lying whoever is accusing the cop will have won, as the place that can be proven is in court. Anyway, how is actually requiring evidence, and taking the time for a full investigation and proper trial a _bad_ thing? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2017, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11301 "2017-09-01T17:13:52Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > That is why police and police unions fought to outlaw civilian video recording, and why the so often opposed car-cams and body-cams. But even WITH video, too many still get away with too much. And too many can (and do) turn the cameras on or off, at will. Yep, unions suck. They need their powers reducing, so that bad workers can be sacked and good workers rewarded. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=564) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=566)