# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 567
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2017, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11322 "2017-09-02T16:17:40Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > And your grovelling at their feet will just get you laughed at and spat upon by the thugs in uniform that you so worship. A handful of cops do this, the vast majority are risking their lives to make everyone else’s lives better. That you think they are all thugs shows I’m not lying, that you do in fact despise them for the job they choose to do. But you know what? They’re going to protect you anyway. Your life is vastly better than it would otherwise be because of these “thugs”, and it will remain so no matter what you think of them. The same applies to everyone in every civilised society - even criminals who get treated far better by the police and courts than they would by mob rule. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2017, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11323 "2017-09-02T16:24:02Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > A handful of cops do this, the vast majority are risking their lives to make everyone else’s lives better. That you think they are all thugs shows I’m not lying, that you do in fact despise them for the job they choose to do. > > But you know what? They’re going to protect you anyway. Your life is vastly better than it would otherwise be because of these “thugs”, and it will remain so no matter what you think of them. The same applies to everyone in every civilised society - even criminals who get treated far better by the police and courts than they would by mob rule. I think it’s very likely that between “a handful” and “all of them” lies the actual number of vicious and violent cops. And a far larger number, while not violent themselves, cover for the violent ones, due to their fear of reprisals from the “blue wall”. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2017, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11324 "2017-09-02T16:28:02Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Wrong again. The best that could be done for the victims of police abuse is for _ **the police not to abuse them in the first place.** _ I don’t think you understand the basic concept of the forward movement of time… > [@](#): > > Many of these bad cops you’re so fond of are multiple abusers; they do something obviously wrong, are put on paid leave for a few days; invited back; then kill or abuse someone else, take another paid vacation, and abuse someone else. Yet you continually defend them. Bah! Yeah, and there’s a couple of simple solutions to much of that. Get rid of the unions that enable that, and have more than 10% turnout in elections where the worst abuses are happening. Or, you can use magical thinking to try to turn cops into perfect robots. Good luck with that. > [@](#): > > And in the 2nd part of your quote above, you almost brag that cops are human, and therefore just as criminal as the criminals. Wow! Just as criminal as the rest of humanity, I suspect. But well done for trying to claim that all cops are criminals, but that won’t be true no matter how often people claim it. > [@](#): > > Labor unions have been reduced to a shadow of their former selves. As a result of this, income inequality in the U.S. continues to soar. Income inequality is hardly a bad thing… Poverty is a bad thing, but my poverty is not caused by your income, it’s not a zero sum game. Also, income inequality is fair. If you do a better job than me, you should be paid more, but unions try to prevent this. > [@](#): > > … But you think unions are still too strong. :smack: What an ignorant right-wing dolt you are! This thread contains plenty of proof that unions are too strong. _If_ further protections against firing, or a higher minimum wage are required, then they should be enshrined in law, not applied to select groups of workers who are members of corrupt, anti-democratic bodies. As it happens, I think that there is a definite need for further protections, and a good argument for a higher minimum wage, but that should be achieved through democratic means. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2017, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11325 "2017-09-02T16:30:07Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > And a far larger number, while not violent themselves, cover for the violent ones, due to their fear of reprisals from the “blue wall”. Yep, I fully agree they should be prevented from organising such a wall. ---
**Author:** ![steatopygia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steatopygia/32/3132_2.png) [@steatopygia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steatopygia)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2017, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11326 "2017-09-02T16:40:23Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > Good! Maybe a nice stretch **in prison** would teach him his proper place. > > **In addition, if I were the hospital administrator, I’d fire the hospital rentacops (or whatever they are) for letting him do it in the first plac**e. Bolding mine. Absolutely not. The arresting officer grabbed the nurse without much warning. If the hospital security had attempted to interfere at that point, much greater violence would possibly have occurred. I believe they acted correctly at that point. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2017, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11327 "2017-09-02T16:53:06Z")
> [@steatopygia](#): > > Bolding mine. > Absolutely not. The arresting officer grabbed the nurse without much warning. If the hospital security had attempted to interfere at that point, much greater violence would possibly have occurred. I believe they acted correctly at that point. I’ll concede that point. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2017, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11328 "2017-09-02T17:00:06Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Yep, I fully agree they should be prevented from organising such a wall. Unions are a tiny part of that wall – the wall is embedded in police culture. It wasn’t unions that got Frank Serpico shot. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2017, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11329 "2017-09-02T17:44:20Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > A handful of cops do this, the vast majority are risking their lives to make everyone else’s lives better. _That you think they are all thugs shows I’m not lying_, that you do in fact despise them for the job they choose to do. > > But you know what? They’re going to protect you anyway. Your life is vastly better than it would otherwise be because of these “thugs”, and it will remain so no matter what you think of them. The same applies to everyone in every civilised society - even criminals who get treated far better by the police and courts than they would by mob rule. That you would post that I think that they are all thugs shows that you are either lying, or completely unable to read, or both. I would say both, but I don’t think that we have even come close to a comprehensive list of your problems. That you claim that I despise all cops puts you into the catagory of a mind reader, but a stupid mind reader that likes to lie. Yeah, I despise them, that’s why I want them better paid, and better trained, because that’s what you want with people you despise. When your argument is so transparently based on lies and strawmen, why do you keep it up? Do you get something out of lying? Do you get paid for this? Is this pleasurable to you? Are you just a pathological liar who has stumbled onto this message board and found a place you can lie constantly with little consequence? (actually, that would be the most respectable reason for your behavior here.) You also like to keep repeating that cops are risking their lives. So? So are garbagemen. They have a much riskier job than cops. Do you let them break down your door because you forgot to take out your garbage? Do you let them shoot at cars that look like they might hit them? Every time you talk about how dangerous of a job it is, it just makes your argument that much weaker. That I refer to cops who break the law and violate people’s civil rights as thugs does not reflect upon the rest of the police force. That I feel that these thugs will not respect your defense of them does not reflect my views on the rest of the police force. The fact that “good” cops do not rein in or turn in their bad colleagues does reflect my views on the police force, but they are not thugs, they are enablers. Some of whom are both too cowardly to actually commit crimes against the community themselves, but also too cowardly to report upon their colleagues when they break the law. And some, I assume, are good people. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2017, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11330 "2017-09-03T05:25:21Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Yeah, and there’s a couple of simple solutions to much of that. Get rid of the unions that enable that, You claim, with one side of your face, that there’s nothing wrong with the way police do their jobs. And then, with the other side of your face, that unions are the reason so many police do their jobs badly. Are you too stupid to see the contradiction? You also lie about other people’s opinions. That’s because you’re a liar. You’re a lying piece of shit bootlicker. Your parents should be ashamed they raised someone like you–but they’re probably lying pieces of shit too, and that’s where you learned it. ---
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2017, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11331 "2017-09-03T12:21:11Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > However, it’s an example of how good police allow bad police to misbehave. I would argue that that only shows they AREN’T good police. If a police officer witnesses another officer attempting to break the law and does nothing, well, I have a few words that would describe them, but “good” isn’t one of them. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2017, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11332 "2017-09-03T14:14:53Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > You claim, with one side of your face, that there’s nothing wrong with the way police do their jobs. And then, with the other side of your face, that unions are the reason so many police do their jobs badly. Are you too stupid to see the contradiction? > > You also lie about other people’s opinions. That’s because you’re a liar. You’re a lying piece of shit bootlicker. Your parents should be ashamed they raised someone like you–but they’re probably lying pieces of shit too, and that’s where you learned it. Oh, the irony where you lie about what I’ve said to claim I’m a liar. Actually, maybe you’re not lying, maybe you’re just to stupid to read for comprehension and understand a nuanced position. I’ll put it as simply as I can. Most cops do a good job, risking their lives to make yours better. A few do not, and the unions protect those bad cops. As for bootlicking, that’s simply not true, no matter how many times you claim it. Respect is not bootlicking, and neither is expecting cops to wear body cameras, or expecting them to be challenged in court and face justice (not retribution) when they are found to have done wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2017, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11333 "2017-09-03T14:56:35Z")
I’m not sure why the union is to blame. Soldiers aren’t unionized and can be abusive, and tolerant of abuses they witness other soldiers doing. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2017, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11334 "2017-09-03T16:09:23Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Oh, the irony where you lie about what I’ve said to claim I’m a liar. Actually, maybe you’re not lying, maybe you’re just to stupid to read for comprehension and understand a nuanced position. > > I’ll put it as simply as I can. Most cops do a good job, risking their lives to make yours better. A few do not, and the unions protect those bad cops. As for bootlicking, that’s simply not true, no matter how many times you claim it. Respect is not bootlicking, and neither is expecting cops to wear body cameras, or expecting them to be challenged in court and face justice (not retribution) when they are found to have done wrong. What we, or at least what I want, is not for ALL unions to be gutted. YOU are the only one who wants ALL unions gutted. What I and many others have been saying is, deal with the bad cops. Fire them, press charges, and send them, and those who conspire to cover for them to prison, just like any other criminal. YOU are the one lying and twisting what people say. YOU are the one who will not see that getting rid of the bad ones is the one and ONLY answer. And as far as police work being so dangerous, I doubt it even makes the Top Five list. But we don’t see farmers, crab fishermen, or high tension wire repairmen in the news every day, do we. These guys are right. You are a boot licking, toady. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2017, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11335 "2017-09-03T16:22:14Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > expecting them to be challenged in court and face justice (not retribution) when they are found to have done wrong. Justice is what everyone in this thread wants, dumbass. How the fuck have you not figured that out yet? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2017, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11336 "2017-09-03T16:27:17Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > What we, or at least what I want, is not for ALL unions to be gutted. YOU are the only one who wants ALL unions gutted. What I and many others have been saying is, deal with the bad cops. Fire them, press charges, and send them, and those who conspire to cover for them to prison, just like any other criminal. > > YOU are the one lying and twisting what people say. YOU are the one who will not see that getting rid of the bad ones is the one and ONLY answer. Bullshit. I want to get rid of the bad ones, but unlike you and others I both understand the steps needed to do this, and understand that it’s not an issue limited to the police, but in all unionised public service jobs. The rather tragically amusing thing is this thread is full of occasions when bad cops were fired, people were compensated for the harm done to them, and even the worst cops going to jail when it can actually be proved that they were criminal. Unlike most people posting here, I actually require that people (cops or otherwise) are proved guilty before being punished. Also, looking the other way when someone commits a crime isn’t a conspiracy, in the vast amount of cases it’s not even a crime. I would be hesitant to suggest it should be a crime, there could be a huge amount of dangerous unintended consequences, but it probably should be department policy not to do it. I wonder how the unions feel about that… > [@](#): > > And as far as police work being so dangerous, I doubt it even makes the Top Five list. But we don’t see farmers, crab fishermen, or high tension wire repairmen in the news every day, do we. Those people deserve respect too. There’s a big difference though - farmers and fishermen aren’t at risk from people actively out to harm them, and people like you aren’t trying to make that risk much greater. > [@](#): > > These guys are right. You are a boot licking, toady. You like those guys are incapable of reading for, comprehension. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2017, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11337 "2017-09-03T16:29:09Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > Justice is what everyone in this thread wants, dumbass. How the fuck have you not figured that out yet? Because people like you keep calling for retribution and vengeance, and saying that the police shouldn’t have the same protections at trial as everyone else. You explicitly denied earlier that one should actually have to have proof a cop was lying before disbelieving him when he’s on trial, that we should compensate alleged victims based solely on their word. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2017, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11338 "2017-09-03T16:34:47Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I’m not sure why the union is to blame. Soldiers aren’t unionized and can be abusive, and tolerant of abuses they witness other soldiers doing. Soldiers are carefully trained to have each other’s backs, and to see conflict as an “us v them” situation, for obvious reasons. It’s unsurprising - though obviously unacceptable - that these abuses happen. Unions exist precisely to create that “us v them” environment, although in the case of the police the hatred for them, as displayed in this thread and at your local BLM or OWS “protest”, also ensure that environment prevails. Both the police and the public need to change. Get rid of unions and enforce body cameras on the police side. On your part, start remembering that the police as a whole, and the vast majority of individual officers, make your life immeasurably better and give them the respect they deserve. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2017, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11339 "2017-09-03T16:52:09Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Soldiers are carefully trained to have each other’s backs, and to see conflict as an “us v them” situation, for obvious reasons. It’s unsurprising - though obviously unacceptable - that these abuses happen. Which is why it is disturbing that police are using military tactics and equipment against their communities. They are creating an us vs them situation, which is why it is unsurprising that these abuses happen. > [@](#): > > Unions exist precisely to create that “us v them” environment, Ridiculously incorrect. If unions create and us vs them environment, it is that of employee vs management. Unions do not create a union vs public environment. The militarization and lack of accountability of police towards abuses in their community create that. > [@](#): > > although in the case of the police the hatred for them, as displayed in this thread and at your local BLM or OWS “protest”, also ensure that environment prevails. That people protest police abuses, or criticize the police for abusing citizens and terrorizing communities is what ensures that the police maintain a us vs them mentality? Sound like the police that feel this way either need to stop being delicate snowflakes, or they need to get a different job. > [@](#): > > Both the police and the public need to change. Get rid of unions and enforce body cameras on the police side. On your part, start remembering that the police as a whole, and the vast majority of individual officers, make your life immeasurably better and give them the respect they deserve. And that’s where you get really stupid(er). The police need to change, yes. The public, no. The police serve the public. If the public is not being served properly by the police, it is the police who need to change and serve the public properly, not the public who should accept corruption, abuse, and oppression in their neighborhoods by those “few bad apples”. There is no one in this thread, and scarce few in real life who would advocate for not having police (yes, there are some stupid anarchist out there, and some may even have blogs, if they are the ones that you are actually refering to, go talk to them). So every time you make such a claim, you show once again just how stupid and dishonest you really are. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2017, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11340 "2017-09-03T18:14:11Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I’m not sure why the union is to blame. Soldiers aren’t unionized and can be abusive, and tolerant of abuses they witness other soldiers doing. It’s not so much that the presence of the union creates abusive police, but that the strength of these unions, and the difficulty (in many cases) of terminating officers who abuse their power, tends to encourage abusive officers in their behavior. It also tends to discourage other police from speaking up against abuse because there is a culture of solidarity, and because the non-abusive cops know that, if they speak out, the person they testify against might not even lose his or her job, and the whistle-blower will then be subject to retaliation on the force. This is a tough issue. On the one hand, i support employee unions. A collective bargaining unit like a union strengthens the employees’ claims for better pay and working conditions. The contracts negotiated between unions and employers also often help to protect employees from arbitrary punishment or dismissal by supervisors who might have a personal animosity or an axe to grind or a favorite person that they want to promote. At the same time, though, unions often focus so heavily on protecting their members that they fail to fulfill their broader obligation to other stakeholders in their area of employment. A police union that protects violent and criminal officers from dismissal violates the public trust and abrogates its public responsibility. I’m a union member in a public sector union. I like having the union negotiating on my behalf, and i like knowing that i can call on the union if i feel i’ve been unfairly treated by my university. At the same time, though, there have been cases where the union has defended a faculty member who, in my opinion, did not really deserve being defended. I’m not sure if there’s a good way to deal with these issues. It seems to me that there should be a mechanism whereby the union, in some circumstances, can come out and say, “We think this person’s conduct is so egregious that to defend it would be a violation of our public duty.” But of course, that creates problems of its own. It’s a tough issue, especially in the case of the police, because they have the power of life and death over the public they’re (supposed to be) serving. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2017, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11341 "2017-09-03T18:22:17Z")
A key part of the solution is to mandate truly independent police review commissions that hold real power. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=566) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=568)