# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 578
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2017, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11542 "2017-09-20T23:02:44Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Well, I’d prefer that any movement acknowledges that all lives matter equally, but if I had to make a choice between supporting a movement for the rights of people who’ve had equality for over half a century against one for the rights of people who still don’t have equality, I’m obviously going to choose the latter. So yes, Crazy Lives Matter or LGBT Lives Matter would be far more important. > > But ultimately, even those movements would be exclusionary and divisive. The reason, in my opinion, that Gay Pride has been so successful is that it’s been extremely inclusive, welcoming straight people to events and marches and so on. That stands in stark contrast to the likes of Occupy Wall Street or Black Lives Matter, which inherently try to divide people by class or race. That you feel excluded by Black Lives Matter is too bad. But you should consider whether it has more to do with you, and your understanding of the movement, than the movement itself. As a white guy, I do not feel that exclusion. What do you think is different about me, exactly? ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2017, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11543 "2017-09-20T23:08:21Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > That you feel excluded by Black Lives Matter is too bad. But you should consider whether it has more to do with you, and your understanding of the movement, than the movement itself. > > As a white guy, I do not feel that exclusion. What do you think is different about me, exactly? I don’t feel excluded either. Maybe it’s a “thing” that’s going around? As long as the BLM is looking for justice, having the “few (yeah right) bad apples” disciplined (not reassigned or retired, but actually charged and convicted), and they do it legally and politically, I support them. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2017, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11544 "2017-09-20T23:10:32Z")
I feel no more excluded by Black Lives Matter than I do when the fire department shows up with sirens and axes and hoses and spends a lot of attention and effort on my neighbor’s house, but none on mine. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2017, 9:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11545 "2017-09-21T09:51:24Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > That you feel excluded by Black Lives Matter is too bad. But you should consider whether it has more to do with you, and your understanding of the movement, than the movement itself. > > As a white guy, I do not feel that exclusion. What do you think is different about me, exactly? Feelings have nothing to do with it. It _is_ an inherently exclusionary, and therefore regressive, movement. As to what makes you different, I guess you don’t greatly care about divisive movements if they superficially seem to be doing something right. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2017, 9:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11546 "2017-09-21T09:55:25Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I feel no more excluded by Black Lives Matter than I do when the fire department shows up with sirens and axes and hoses and spends a lot of attention and effort on my neighbor’s house, but none on mine. I would feel extremely excluded in that situation, and pretty fucking upset that my house had been left to burn down whilst the one next door had been saved. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2017, 10:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11547 "2017-09-21T10:05:07Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > I would feel extremely excluded in that situation, and pretty fucking upset that my house had been left to burn down whilst the one next door had been saved. Still no responsibility for lying about me, huh? In my scenario, your house isn’t on fire. Only your neighbor’s is. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2017, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11548 "2017-09-21T10:33:16Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > In my scenario, your house isn’t on fire. Only your neighbor’s is. In that case it’s not a relevant analogy. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2017, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11549 "2017-09-21T10:36:54Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > “He’s coming at you with a knife - just don’t shoot. Just accept a higher risk that you might die or be injured.” That’s stupid, and that’s why **mhendo** can’t defend it. > > Regards, > Shodan You know what’s stupid? People like you continually demanding detailed plans for proper use of force, while completely ignoring the fact that many police departments all over the world have exactly those plans already available. > **[Use of force, firearms and less lethal weapons | College of Policing](https://www.college.police.uk/app/armed-policing/use-force-firearms-and-less-lethal-weapons)** > > This page is from APP, the official source of professional practice for policing. That’s a pretty comprehensive plan for the escalating use of force in order to both increase officer safety while reducing fatalities. Now, go ahead and tell me that these cops are all “stupid” for doing exactly what the people here are saying they should be doing. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2017, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11550 "2017-09-21T10:57:24Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > So he said he was gonna kill the guy, he killed the guy, then he may or may not have planted a gun on the guy, all on tape, but still no conviction. As questionable as the officer’s behavior is in this case, I can actually understand the judge’s decision. The issue of planting the gun doesn’t really answer the question of whether the state can prove beyond reasonable doubt whether the officer intended to commit the act of murder. As far as the comment itself, “I’m gonna kill that f----er” is probably something a lot of people might say in the heat of a dangerous automobile pursuit. It’s not necessarily evidence of a premeditated act of murder. It seems that in retrospect perhaps there might have been other lesser charges that might have stuck, ranging from his handling of the crime scene to manslaughter. But then again, the prosecutors would know the law better than I, so they must have felt that this was their best opportunity for justice. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2017, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11551 "2017-09-21T11:01:00Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > In that case it’s not a relevant analogy. Yes it is, liar. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2017, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11552 "2017-09-21T11:33:37Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > “He’s coming at you with a knife - just don’t shoot. Just accept a higher risk that you might die or be injured.” That’s stupid, and that’s why **mhendo** can’t defend it. I think it’s entirely fair to expect the police, when faced with a hostile person who isn’t armed with a gun, to have alternatives to “shoot to kill”. Being a cop comes with a certain degree of danger. It’s part of the whole “protect and serve” thing. Being willing and able to deescalate a situation, or disarm a knife-wielding subject by non-lethal means, or for that matter not immediately opening fire on an unarmed, violent subject, or unarmed men lying on the ground with their hands up, or any number of other situations you would not expect the cop to _shoot you_. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2017, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11553 "2017-09-21T12:09:38Z")
I find it odd that a campus centred police force apparently has no policy for people in crisis. If there was ever a pressure cooker, contained environment filled with intoxicants, stress and hormones university would be it. In 2014 Toronto produced a report on [Police Encounters with People in Crisis](https://www.torontopolice.on.ca/publications/files/reports/police_encounters_with_people_in_crisis_2014.pdf) which in turn led the Ministry of Community Safety and Correctional Services to adopt all 22 recommendation in the [ONTARIO DIRECTION TO POLICE ON DE-ESCALATION](https://www.ombudsman.on.ca/Investigations/SORT-Investigations/Completed/Ontario-direction-to-police-on-de-escalation.aspx) report. It remains to be seen if the attempts to improve training and shift the policing culture work. As the People in Crisis report points out “culture eats training”. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2017, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11554 "2017-09-21T12:53:12Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > I think it’s entirely fair to expect the police, when faced with a hostile person who isn’t armed with a gun, to have alternatives to “shoot to kill”. Then, by all means, describe the circumstances under which the police should and should not shoot, and what should happen when they follow your new policy and when they don’t. Here is a hostile person. He doesn’t have a gun, just a knife. When should he be shot? What should happen if he isn’t shot, and he attacks a cop, or someone else? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2017, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11555 "2017-09-21T13:17:49Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > You still haven’t taken responsibility for making shit up about me. Jesus Christ dude, let it go. Reading interesting things you may post is becoming annoying because now it seems every other post is you calling someone a liar. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2017, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11556 "2017-09-21T13:19:33Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Here is a hostile person. He doesn’t have a gun, just a knife. What’s wrong with tazing in this instance? Or the guy who had a pipe? They had a tazer, but still shot him anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2017, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11557 "2017-09-21T13:24:18Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > [Deaf Man Killed by OKC Police as Neighbors Scream](http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/he-cant-hear-you-deaf-man-killed-by-okc-police-as-neighbors-scream/ar-AAsgQEz?li=BBnbfcL) > Shot AND tasered. The two officers didn’t communicate with the people in the neighborhood and they didn’t communicate with each other (why taze and shoot simultaneously?). They felt threatened enough to kill a man who had a stick, who was several feet away, and who was clearly trying to use sign language. Police must have some pretty shitty training in this country or they’re hiring some of the biggest chickenshits they can find (actually it is probably both). To not let it filter into your brain that several people are screaming “The man is deaf!”, you must be seriously shitting your pants over a chubby man with a stick. My prediction: no charges filed. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2017, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11558 "2017-09-21T13:34:39Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Jesus Christ dude, let it go. Reading interesting things you may post is becoming annoying because now it seems every other post is you calling someone a liar. I’m pretty sure it’s just him. Who else did I call a liar anytime recently, and where else aside from this thread (in which he lied about me) and the Pit thread I started about him? ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2017, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11559 "2017-09-21T13:41:46Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Feelings have nothing to do with it. It _is_ an inherently exclusionary, and therefore regressive, movement. You say that. But I think the better analysis is that your feelings have everything to do with it. Meanwhile, has this thread discussed the cop in WV who got fired for failing to kill someone? A rather good example of the police needing to decide to just stop killing so many people, contra Shodan’s suggestion that this isn’t at all about the police just making the choice to just stop killing so many people. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2017, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11560 "2017-09-21T13:43:15Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’m pretty sure it’s just him. Who else did I call a liar anytime recently, and where else aside from this thread (in which he lied about me) and the Pit thread I started about him? Well, he is “someone”. Just let it go. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2017, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11561 "2017-09-21T13:46:24Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Well, he is “someone”. Just let it go. I might still mention it once in a while, unless he takes it back. But it’s okay. You can just let it go. It doesn’t have to bother you unless you let it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=577) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=579)