# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 587
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2017, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11722 "2017-10-25T15:22:28Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > You were up for executing tamir rice, when there was not so much clear evidence of his guilt. No, I wasn’t. Words have meanings, and “execution” is a state sanction killing after a trial, not a killing that is either self defence or murder. Whatever you believe happened in that incident, it was nothing resembling an execution. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2017, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11723 "2017-10-25T15:29:37Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No, I wasn’t. Words have meanings, and “execution” is a state sanction killing after a trial, not a killing that is either self defence or murder. Whatever you believe happened in that incident, it was nothing resembling an execution. That’s true. Whether one agrees with executions or not, they still have the virtue of having to follow proper procedures, such as arrest and trial and conviction. What you supported in the Rice case was just a homicide. ---
**Author:** ![Crazy\_Canuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazy_canuck/32/5282_2.png) [@Crazy\_Canuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazy_Canuck)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2017, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11724 "2017-10-25T16:56:12Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > When I’m mistaken I’ll acknowledge it, and apologise. It’s happened more than once on this board when I have got posters mixed up, or seriously misunderstood someone. False accusations I will ignore, as the facts speak for themselves. How fucking stupid do you think we are? Do you honestly think any one participating in this thread buys that big steaming pile of bullshit even a little bit? You ignore anything you don’t want to believe (example: my point about flash blindness) and tell everyone who disagrees with you to fuck off. The only thing you are right about is the facts speaking for themselves, and the facts are pretty clear that you are a fucking liar. ---
**Author:** ![Projammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/projammer/32/559_2.png) [@Projammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Projammer)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2017, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11725 "2017-10-25T18:26:01Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Having 6 members of a jury being unable to find him guilty does. Nope. I can easily find a half dozen LEO fellating fuckwits like yourself on this board alone. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2017, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11726 "2017-10-25T18:28:13Z")
> [@Projammer](#): > > Nope. I can easily find a half dozen LEO fellating fuckwits like yourself on this board alone. And, as was pointed out earlier, you don’t even have to be a cop sucker, you can also be a racist in order to refuse to convict this murderer. Not in short supply down there. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2017, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11727 "2017-10-25T19:32:11Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > And, as was pointed out earlier, you don’t even have to be a cop sucker, you can also be a racist in order to refuse to convict this murderer. Not in short supply down there. Yep, so keep trying till you get the right result. Would you be fine with that happening to a black guy accused of killing a cop? Send him to the chair despite real doubt over his guilt, right? I guess all the outrage over unsafe convictions needs to stop. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2017, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11728 "2017-10-25T19:37:01Z")
> [@Crazy\_Canuck](#): > > (example: my point about flash blindness) That has nothing to do with anything. If you think flash blindness justifies killing people, I’d hate to be your partner coming back early, or your kid coming back late… Are you really suggesting that it’s reasonable for someone who can’t see to just start firing randomly at shapes that might be people? That’s not responding to an imminent threat, that’s being a crazy person. And don’t shoot cops who are doing their jobs. It’s fucking ridiculous that this is a controversial position. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2017, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11729 "2017-10-25T19:38:09Z")
> [@Projammer](#): > > Nope. I can easily find a half dozen LEO fellating fuckwits like yourself on this board alone. Ah. adding homophobia to the idiocy. You stay classy. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2017, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11730 "2017-10-25T20:11:19Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Yep, so keep trying till you get the right result. Would you be fine with that happening to a black guy accused of killing a cop? Send him to the chair despite real doubt over his guilt, right? I guess all the outrage over unsafe convictions needs to stop. My god, you are stupid. You are still going on this? You don’t understand what a mistrial means, even though it’s been explained to you? Well, there aren’t as many mistrials for black guys accused of killing cops, they get convicted at a far far higher rate than cops do for killing black guys. But yeah, that’s the justice system, if there is a mistrial for a black man accused of killing a cop that results in a mistrial, I have no problem with the state trying the case again. Now, it would be nice if the black guy accused of killing the cop would be afforded any of the benefits that a cop gets after killing, in which case, I suspect that the black people would get off as often as the cops do. It would be one thing if you were just a liar, and your lies helped your position to anyone who didn’t know how dishonest you were, but you’re so pathetic that your lies actually hurt your position. Why would you do that? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2017, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11731 "2017-10-25T20:19:04Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Yep, so keep trying till you get the right result. Would you be fine with that happening to a black guy accused of killing a cop? Send him to the chair despite real doubt over his guilt, right? I guess all the outrage over unsafe convictions needs to stop. Come on man, you have to be willfully obtuse to not understand what a mistrial is and why it is not a guilty or non guilty verdict. 5 minutes of Googling will tell you all of this. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2017, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11732 "2017-10-25T20:20:26Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > That has nothing to do with anything. If you think flash blindness justifies killing people, I’d hate to be your partner coming back early, or your kid coming back late… > > Are you really suggesting that it’s reasonable for someone who can’t see to just start firing randomly at shapes that might be people? That’s not responding to an imminent threat, that’s being a crazy person. > > And don’t shoot cops who are doing their jobs. It’s fucking ridiculous that this is a controversial position. If someone breaks down your door, shoots your dog, and throws an explosive ordnance at you that causes you partial blindness (and third degree burns to your baby), you would be crazy to shoot at the shapes that have done that to you? ---
**Author:** ![Crazy\_Canuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazy_canuck/32/5282_2.png) [@Crazy\_Canuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazy_Canuck)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2017, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11733 "2017-10-25T20:25:10Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > That has nothing to do with anything. If you think flash blindness justifies killing people, I’d hate to be your partner coming back early, or your kid coming back late… Nice strawman. Please cite where I claimed that flash blindness justifies killing people, because I’m pretty sure I didn’t. What I said is that your (repeated) statement “It’s not difficult to tell the difference between a swat team and a burglar.” is factually false due to that phenomenon. This is not a moral statement, but a factual one. Would you care to address it? > [@Steophan](#): > > TAre you really suggesting that it’s reasonable for someone who can’t see to just start firing randomly at shapes that might be people? That’s not responding to an imminent threat, that’s being a crazy person. Are those shapes in my locked and barred house (that I live alone in) during the middle of the night? In that limited case, yes, I do believe that I have the legal and moral authority to use lethal force to protect myself in that situation, and I will do so. Or can only cops use lethal force to protect themselves when they are scared for their lives? ---
**Author:** ![Projammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/projammer/32/559_2.png) [@Projammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Projammer)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2017, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11734 "2017-10-25T21:26:29Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Ah. adding homophobia to the idiocy. You stay classy. I never brought homophobia into the conversation. I fully support your right to fellate anyone who’s willing to let you. So by all means, knock yourself out. I sincerely mean that. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2017, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11735 "2017-10-25T23:00:53Z")
> [@Crazy\_Canuck](#): > > Are those shapes in my locked and barred house (that I live alone in) during the middle of the night? In that limited case, yes, I do believe that I have the legal and moral authority to use lethal force to protect myself in that situation, and I will do so. Or can only cops use lethal force to protect themselves when they are scared for their lives? You (obviously) don’t have that right against cops who are there with a warrant. I’ve no idea why you would think otherwise. You have the right to defend yourself against _threats_, not against the police. Are you really so idiotic you can’t see the difference? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2017, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11736 "2017-10-25T23:06:01Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > You (obviously) don’t have that right against cops who are there with a warrant. I’ve no idea why you would think otherwise. You have the right to defend yourself against _threats_, not against the police. Are you really so idiotic you can’t see the difference? You say, people have the right to kill in self defense for perceived threats even if there was no actual threat, but you say that they should not perceive a threat from people busting down their door, invading their home, shooting their dog, and throwing grenades in their baby’s crib? I hope that you are really just trying to troll here, because if this is what you actually think, then you are a pathetic excuse for a human being. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2017, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11737 "2017-10-25T23:07:37Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > My god, you are stupid. You are still going on this? You don’t understand what a mistrial means, even though it’s been explained to you? Well, there aren’t as many mistrials for black guys accused of killing cops, they get convicted at a far far higher rate than cops do for killing black guys. But yeah, that’s the justice system, if there is a mistrial for a black man accused of killing a cop that results in a mistrial, I have no problem with the state trying the case again. > > Now, it would be nice if the black guy accused of killing the cop would be afforded any of the benefits that a cop gets after killing, in which case, I suspect that the black people would get off as often as the cops do. > > It would be one thing if you were just a liar, and your lies helped your position to anyone who didn’t know how dishonest you were, but you’re so pathetic that your lies actually hurt your position. > > Why would you do that? I understand what a mistrial is. It is my _opinion_, as I’ve clearly stated, that if a juror who has full knowledge of the relevant facts and law considers they can’t find the defendant guilty, that is necessarily reasonable doubt of guilt. In the case we are discussing, there was found to be reasonable doubt of guilt in not one but 3 trials, one of them with half the jury voting not to convict. All the other jurors should have acknowledged that there was reason to doubt guilt, and voted to acquit, and if they failed to do their (moral, at least) duty, the case should have been thrown out. The idea of repeatedly trying people until you find a jury that will convict is disgusting, no matter what technicality you use to justify it. I’m not lying about anything, I understand what the law is. But in this particular situation, the law is wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2017, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11738 "2017-10-25T23:10:33Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > You say, people have the right to kill in self defense for perceived threats even if there was no actual threat, but you say that they should not perceive a threat from people busting down their door, invading their home, shooting their dog, and throwing grenades in their baby’s crib? > > I hope that you are really just trying to troll here, because if this is what you actually think, then you are a pathetic excuse for a human being. You have the right to defend against reasonable threats. That (again, obviously) does not include the police doing their job. The _only_ way that becomes a threat is if you force it to become one by attacking or resisting the police. And yeah, they will probably shoot the dog, unless it does what the cops want it to. That sucks for both the dog and the owner, but it’s necessary. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2017, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11739 "2017-10-25T23:26:57Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > You are the one supporting vigilantism and state sanctioned murder. Proposing executing someone when there is clear doubt about their guilt is utterly despicable. You don’t care in the slightest about justice, you just want to kick back against authority. If you were an 8 year old child, that would be understandable if not acceptable, but as a presumably educated adult it’s disgusting. You shit slurping maggot. The best part of you ran down your mother’s legs. Hell you’re the reason she started swallowing instead. Your birth certificate is an apology letter from the condom factory. You’re so stupid you couldn’t pour piss out of a boot if the directions were written on the heel. ---
**Author:** ![Projammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/projammer/32/559_2.png) [@Projammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Projammer)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2017, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11740 "2017-10-26T00:23:04Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > I understand what a mistrial is. It is my _opinion_, as I’ve clearly stated, that if a juror who has full knowledge of the relevant facts and law considers they can’t find the defendant guilty, that is necessarily reasonable doubt of guilt. > > In the case we are discussing, there was found to be reasonable doubt of guilt in not one but 3 trials, one of them with half the jury voting not to convict. All the other jurors should have acknowledged that there was reason to doubt guilt, and voted to acquit, and if they failed to do their (moral, at least) duty, the case should have been thrown out. By your logic, since there are more than six of us here that, with full knowledge of the relevant facts, consider you to be a complete and utter fuckwit, you should concede that to be established fact and move on. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2017, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11741 "2017-10-26T00:29:40Z")
> [@Projammer](#): > > By your logic, since there are more than six of us here that, with full knowledge of the relevant facts, consider you to be a complete and utter fuckwit, you should concede that to be established fact and move on. I’m not sure which you fail at harder, logic, reading comprehension, or insults. I’m unwilling to give it enough thought to decide. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=586) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=588)