# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 588
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2017, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11742 "2017-10-26T00:31:10Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > You shit slurping maggot. > > The best part of you ran down your mother’s legs. Hell you’re the reason she started swallowing instead. Your birth certificate is an apology letter from the condom factory. You’re so stupid you couldn’t pour piss out of a boot if the directions were written on the heel. You know, I’ve changed my mind. You’re not acting like an 8 year old who hates his teacher, you’re acting like a 12 year old who’s just learned a few new words. I sincerely apologise for underestimating your mental age by so much. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2017, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11743 "2017-10-26T01:10:14Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > You know, I’ve changed my mind. You’re not acting like an 8 year old who hates his teacher, you’re acting like a 12 year old who’s just learned a few new words. I sincerely apologise for underestimating your mental age by so much. It’s funny that you consider yourself the teacher in this scenario, when it’s obvious to all that you’re the uneducated one. ---
**Author:** ![eulalia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eulalia/32/457_2.png) [@eulalia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eulalia)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2017, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11744 "2017-10-26T03:09:57Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > You have the right to defend against reasonable threats. That (again, obviously) does not include the police doing their job. The _only_ way that becomes a threat is if you force it to become one by attacking or resisting the police. > > And yeah, they will probably shoot the dog, unless it does what the cops want it to. That sucks for both the dog and the owner, but it’s necessary. I think you may have never learned about Theory of Mind. [Tuning In to Others: How Young Children Develop Theory of Mind](http://www.hanen.org/helpful-info/articles/tuning-in-to-others-how-young-children-develop.aspx) My point is that you don’t seem to understand that people may not be able to tell if the people breaking in are police or not. Whether this lack of understanding is willful, or just you missing a major childhood milestone is the question. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2017, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11745 "2017-10-26T14:05:31Z")
> [@eulalia](#): > > I think you may have never learned about Theory of Mind. [Tuning In to Others: How Young Children Develop Theory of Mind](http://www.hanen.org/helpful-info/articles/tuning-in-to-others-how-young-children-develop.aspx) > My point is that you don’t seem to understand that people may not be able to tell if the people breaking in are police or not. Whether this lack of understanding is willful, or just you missing a major childhood milestone is the question. So, your argument is that they can’t tell if it’s the police, but they can tell that it’s an imminent threat to their life? That’s bullshit. Stop making excuses for people who shoot cops who are doing their job. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2017, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11746 "2017-10-26T14:23:44Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > So, your argument is that they can’t tell if it’s the police, but they can tell that it’s an imminent threat to their life? That’s bullshit. Stop making excuses for people who shoot cops who are doing their job. Okay, another scenario for you then, since you seem to think that having people break your door down, shoot your dog, and grenade your baby isn’t something that should cause you to have any concerns for your safety. (which is, of course, remarkable stupid on your part, but we’ll act, for the moment, as if that makes any sense whatsoever.) You are walking down the street. Someone seems to be following you. You pick up the pace a bit, and they follow suit. When you turn around to confront them, you see that they have a bulge under their jacket that indicates they have a gun, and you see them reaching for it. Being the gunslinger that you are, you manage to pull and fire before they do. After they are dead, you come to find that they were an undercover cop, and they were watching you because they had suspicion that you were up to no good. Self defense, or shooting a cop just doing their job? What if it hadn’t been a cop, but a mugger doing the exact same thing, would that be self defense? ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2017, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11747 "2017-10-26T16:17:22Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > You have the right to defend against reasonable threats. You have only the legal right to use _proportional force,_ at least in my jurisdiction. That is proportional to the _reasonably_ perceived threat. ---
**Author:** ![eulalia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eulalia/32/457_2.png) [@eulalia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eulalia)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2017, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11748 "2017-10-26T16:29:42Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > So, your argument is that they can’t tell if it’s the police, but they can tell that it’s an imminent threat to their life? That’s bullshit. Stop making excuses for people who shoot cops who are doing their job. So it’s willful trolling then. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2017, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11749 "2017-10-26T19:05:12Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > So, your argument is that they can’t tell if it’s the police, but they can tell that it’s an imminent threat to their life? That’s bullshit. Stop making excuses for people who shoot cops who are doing their job. There’s someone in my house, late at night, not saying anything. Am I supposed to call out “ARE YOU POLICE?” before I defend myself? As for this gem: > [@Steophan](#): > > You have the right to defend against reasonable threats. In what universe is a child with a toy gun a threat? ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2017, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11750 "2017-10-26T22:15:08Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > You know, I’ve changed my mind. You’re not acting like an 8 year old who hates his teacher, you’re acting like a 12 year old who’s just learned a few new words. I sincerely apologise for underestimating your mental age by so much. If we were to ever give you an enema, we could bury you in a match box. If stupidity was painful, you’d be in agony. I tried to see things from your perspective, but I just can’t get my head that far up my ass. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2017, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11751 "2017-10-26T22:30:20Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > If we were to ever give you an enema, we could bury you in a match box. If stupidity was painful, you’d be in agony. I tried to see things from your perspective, but I just can’t get my head that far up my ass. Try shoving it up a police officer’s ass, preferably while they are planting evidence on someone they just murdered. That may give you his perspective. (note, in re-reading, that sounds slightly hostile to you, it’s not meant to be) ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2017, 9:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11752 "2017-10-27T09:26:50Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Okay, another scenario for you then, since you seem to think that having people break your door down, shoot your dog, and grenade your baby isn’t something that should cause you to have any concerns for your safety. (which is, of course, remarkable stupid on your part, but we’ll act, for the moment, as if that makes any sense whatsoever.) > > You are walking down the street. Someone seems to be following you. You pick up the pace a bit, and they follow suit. When you turn around to confront them, you see that they have a bulge under their jacket that indicates they have a gun, and you see them reaching for it. Being the gunslinger that you are, you manage to pull and fire before they do. > > After they are dead, you come to find that they were an undercover cop, and they were watching you because they had suspicion that you were up to no good. > > Self defense, or shooting a cop just doing their job? > > What if it hadn’t been a cop, but a mugger doing the exact same thing, would that be self defense? Define “confront”. Absent any other information, it sounds like you are asking what happens if I threaten someone following behind me, and they reach for their weapon to defend themselves. That they are an undercover cops seems irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2017, 9:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11753 "2017-10-27T09:29:42Z")
> [@Chisquirrel](#): > > In what universe is a child with a toy gun a threat? When the gun has been modified to look like a real gun, when the police have been called because someone appears to have been waving a real gun about, and when said person appears to be reaching for that apparently real gun when the police arrive. What about that makes you think the police couldn’t reasonably have believed they were about to be shot? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2017, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11754 "2017-10-27T14:55:48Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Define “confront”. Absent any other information, it sounds like you are asking what happens if I threaten someone following behind me, and they reach for their weapon to defend themselves. That they are an undercover cops seems irrelevant. > [@](#): > > [Definition of confront > > transitive verb > 1 :to face especially in challenge :oppose confront an enemy The mayor was confronted by a group of protesters. > 2 a :to cause to meet :bring face-to-face confront a reader with statistics confronted her with the evidence > b :to meet face-to-face :encounter confronted the possibility of failure]([Confront Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/confront)) Sure, absent any other information, if you randomly confront someone, then that’s a bit hostile. Given the information that I gave you though, your summary is stupid. Are you saying that you would be fine with someone following a few steps behind you on an otherwise empty street, and you wouldn’t turn around to ask them why? If you were following a few steps behind someone on an otherwise empty street, and they turned around to ask them why you were following them, would you consider that a threat? Okay, then different scenario, you are walking a few steps behind someone one an otherwise empty street. They turn around to ask you why you are doing that, which you take as a threat, so you shoot them. Turns out, they were an undercover cop. ---
**Author:** ![AtomicDog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@AtomicDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AtomicDog)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2017, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11755 "2017-10-27T16:50:05Z")
[Oklahoma City cop handcuffs woman for handing him her ID](https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2017/10/27/1710299/-Oklahoma-City-police-officer-handcuffs-woman-for-riding-a-bike-and-handing-him-her-ID) She’s lucky she was white. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2017, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11756 "2017-10-27T17:15:08Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > When the gun has been modified to look like a real gun, when the police have been called because someone appears to have been waving a real gun about, and when said person appears to be reaching for that apparently real gun when the police arrive. > > What about that makes you think the police couldn’t reasonably have believed they were about to be shot? 😕 Have you watched the video of Tamir Rice’s killing? Do you think the cops could and should have acted differently to avoid killing the boy? Take your time, rewatching the video if need be. For this question, pretend that you value the lives of non-police humans. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2017, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11757 "2017-10-27T17:22:41Z")
You don’t get to shoot anyone just because they are walking near you. You don’t get to shoot cops who are doing a job. You get to shoot people who are, or who can reasonably be considered, a serious, imminent threat to you. Cops doing their job are _necessarily_ bot part of the latter group. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2017, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11758 "2017-10-27T17:23:48Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > 😕 Have you watched the video of Tamir Rice’s killing? Do you think the cops could and should have acted differently to avoid killing the boy? > > Take your time, rewatching the video if need be. For this question, pretend that you value the lives of non-police humans. Could? Yes. Should? No. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2017, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11759 "2017-10-27T17:25:17Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > You don’t get to shoot anyone just because they are walking near you. You don’t get to shoot cops who are doing a job. You get to shoot people who are, or who can reasonably be considered, a serious, imminent threat to you. Cops doing their job are _necessarily_ bot part of the latter group. So, that means that, when you turn around to see who is behind you, and the cop takes that as a threat and shoots you dead, your last words will be, “Thank you for your service.” Considering that this cop considered a woman handing her ID to him to be a threatening gesture, I think that in your dying moments, you will understand that you brought the death upon yourself. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2017, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11760 "2017-10-27T17:25:56Z")
> [@AtomicDog](#): > > [Oklahoma City cop handcuffs woman for handing him her ID](https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2017/10/27/1710299/-Oklahoma-City-police-officer-handcuffs-woman-for-riding-a-bike-and-handing-him-her-ID) > > She’s lucky she was white. She sure is. Lucky we got that on video or the cop-haters would be complaining. Sassy bitch was giving the cop lip and thrust her hand toward him with her ID, not even having the courtesy to remove it from her wallet. I don’t know what felony she was eventually charged with but … sassy man-hating bike-rider? In Oklahoma?? My guess is she was arrested on suspicion of being the only white person in the state to vote for Hillary. Kudos to the cop, doing his part to Make America Great Again. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2017, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11761 "2017-10-27T18:29:49Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > So, that means that, when you turn around to see who is behind you, and the cop takes that as a threat and shoots you dead, your last words will be, “Thank you for your service.” > > Considering that this cop considered a woman handing her ID to him to be a threatening gesture, I think that in your dying moments, you will understand that you brought the death upon yourself. It’s amazing how, when you keep moving the goalposts, the answers keep changing. Don’t shoot cops. Don’t make excuses for those who do. Don’t threaten people with guns (or fake guns made to look like guns). Don’t make excuses for people who do that. Stand up for the actual victims - that is, the people who have been threatened with imminent death and had to kill to survive, and have to live with that for the rest of their lives. Not the people who threatened them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=587) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=589)