# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 589
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2017, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11762 "2017-10-27T18:44:07Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > She sure is. Lucky we got that on video or the cop-haters would be complaining. Sassy bitch was giving the cop lip and thrust her hand toward him with her ID, not even having the courtesy to remove it from her wallet. I don’t know what felony she was eventually charged with but … sassy man-hating bike-rider? In Oklahoma?? My guess is she was arrested on suspicion of being the only white person in the state to vote for Hillary. > > Kudos to the cop, doing his part to Make America Great Again. That’s how I would hope a cop would handle an interaction with someone. The only thing “wrong” was to say she threw it at him, which he immediately corrected to saying she looked like she was going to. She was stopped for 6 or 7 minutes, and no harm came to her. If she had been more cooperative she could have spent those minutes standing by her bike rather than sitting handcuffed in the car. If that’s what counts as “mistreatment”, the whole concept is laughable. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2017, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11763 "2017-10-27T18:56:02Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > It’s amazing how, when you keep moving the goalposts, the answers keep changing. I was not moving goal posts, you fucking peice of shit liar, I was giving you different examples. In each of them, you said that you don’t have a right to self defense until you have determined that the person is not a cop. So, you have no right to self defense, as a mugger isn’t going to show you ID. Your answer never changed. Let the criminals shoot you, let the cops shoot you, and if you are lucky, you get to give the cop free sexual favors. > [@](#): > > Don’t shoot cops. Don’t make excuses for those who do. Don’t threaten people with guns (or fake guns made to look like guns). Don’t make excuses for people who do that. Stand up for the actual victims - that is, the people who have been threatened with imminent death and had to kill to survive, and have to live with that for the rest of their lives. Not the people who threatened them. But don’t stand up for the actual victims that were threatened by imminent death and were killed by police officers. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2017, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11764 "2017-10-27T19:10:09Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > … If she had been more cooperative she could have spent those minutes standing by her bike rather than sitting handcuffed in the car… What _exactly_ did she do that was so “uncooperative” as to require cuffing? Not offering to give the cop a blow job? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2017, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11765 "2017-10-27T19:28:28Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > What _exactly_ did she do that was so “uncooperative” as to require cuffing? Not offering to give the cop a blow job? Watch the video. Listen to what she says, and look at her general demeanour. She is more concerned about being late for work that doing what the cop tells her to do, and (like certain people in this thread) is basically acting like a petulant child. She showed she was completely unwilling to calmly help the cop do his job. The cop dealt with her properly, her ID was processed and she was able to get on with her life with no harm done. Also, it’s not a case of “requiring” cuffing. The cop felt, almost certainly correctly, that the stop would go better if she were cuffed, and it went entirely smoothly from the point he cuffed her - except, notably, when she continued to be uncooperative _as he was uncuffing her_, for fuck’s sake. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2017, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11766 "2017-10-27T19:30:38Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Watch the video. Listen to what she says, and look at her general demeanour. She is more concerned about being late for work that doing what the cop tells her to do, and (like certain people in this thread) is basically acting like a petulant child. She showed she was completely unwilling to calmly help the cop do his job. > > The cop dealt with her properly, her ID was processed and she was able to get on with her life with no harm done. > > Also, it’s not a case of “requiring” cuffing. The cop felt, almost certainly correctly, that the stop would go better if she were cuffed, and it went entirely smoothly from the point he cuffed her - except, notably, when she continued to be uncooperative _as he was uncuffing her_, for fuck’s sake. Can you tell me what law she broke? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2017, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11767 "2017-10-27T19:32:11Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I was not moving goal posts, you fucking peice of shit liar, I was giving you different examples. In each of them, you said that you don’t have a right to self defense until you have determined that the person is not a cop. So, you have no right to self defense, as a mugger isn’t going to show you ID. Your answer never changed. Let the criminals shoot you, let the cops shoot you, and if you are lucky, you get to give the cop free sexual favors. You don’t have to let anybody shoot you, you fucking idiot. You get to defend yourself against anyone who’s threatening you. That (obviously) does not include cops who are doing their job. > [@](#): > > But don’t stand up for the actual victims that were threatened by imminent death and were killed by police officers. People killed by police officers who are doing their job are not (at least in the legal sense) victims of crime. It’s really, really simple. Don’t shoot cops who are doing their job. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2017, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11768 "2017-10-27T19:35:26Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Can you tell me what law she broke? None, as far as I can tell. Why do you ask? ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2017, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11769 "2017-10-27T19:39:28Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > When the gun has been modified to look like a real gun, when the police have been called because someone appears to have been waving a real gun about, and when said person appears to be reaching for that apparently real gun when the police arrive. > > What about that makes you think the police couldn’t reasonably have believed they were about to be shot? Because they were there for two seconds before opening fire. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2017, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11770 "2017-10-27T19:41:15Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Can you tell me what law she broke? Riding a bicycle without permission? Not being subservient enough for Officer Snowflake? Fuck that badge-heavy asshole. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2017, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11771 "2017-10-27T19:54:53Z")
Just so Steophan doesn’t get the idea I’m ignoring or neglecting his sorry troll ass… I want to know, is your ass jealous of the amount of shit that keeps coming out of your mouth? You must have been born on a highway because that’s where most accidents happen. I could eat a bowl of alphabet soup, and shit smarter things than what you come up with. You bring everyone a lot of joy, when you leave the room. You shouldn’t play hide and seek, no one would look for you. if you were on fire and I had water, I’d drink it. I’m not saying I hate you, but I would unplug your life support to charge my phone. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2017, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11772 "2017-10-27T19:55:34Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > Because they were there for two seconds before opening fire. Were they? Is there a video that plays at normal speed? In the videos I’ve seen, it seems like a lot less than 2 seconds — the cops commit the murder as soon as they open their doors. By the way, what became of the lawsuit City of Cleveland filed against the Rice family? Did the Rices ever pay the ambulance bill to take the victim to the ER and the morgue? ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2017, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11773 "2017-10-27T20:11:59Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > By the way, what became of the lawsuit City of Cleveland filed against the Rice family? Did the Rices ever pay the ambulance bill to take the victim to the ER and the morgue? The city dropped that suit. The Rice estate could have paid it from the 6 million the city paid to settle their wrongful death suit, though. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2017, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11774 "2017-10-27T20:15:04Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > The city dropped that suit. The Rice estate could have paid it from the 6 million the city paid to settle their wrongful death suit, though. Whatever finally happened to that so-called “police officer”??? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2017, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11775 "2017-10-27T20:16:29Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > None, as far as I can tell. Why do you ask? So, breaking no laws. Not suspected of breaking any laws “looking at driveways” is not a crime. But still harassed by a police officer. Put into handcuffs not because she was a danger, but because she wasn’t polite enough. She cooperated fully, he asked for her ID, and even though she had to dig it out of her bag, causing her to throw the costume in which she was supposed to work on the ground, she complied as quickly as she was able. She did not refuse any of his commands. She did not threaten in any way. She just wan’t polite enough. That was her crime. She was a bit flustered, as she was not expecting to be harrased by a cop that day. She may have been disturbed that he never told her what he was detaining her for. He had no right to even ask her for her ID. She was not driving. She was not suspected of any law breaking. She would have been within her rights to refuse to give her ID, but she didn’t. And you call her uncooperative, you stupid, stupid fuck. I guess what you wanted to have happen there is that she show her appreciation for the service the cop is providing by giving out sexual favors. Not being polite to a cop should not get you in handcuffs. You should be at least suspected of breaking some law before being put into handcuffs. But, you support this. Well, good news for you bud. I, in the other thread, I have predicted that trump is going to implement a fascist state within the next year or two. That will be awesome for you. The cops will get all the respect they deserve. If some stupid girl on her bike even looks at them funny, they’ll kill her and her family. Won’t that make you the happiest motherfucker on the planet? ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2017, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11776 "2017-10-27T20:17:38Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > Because they were there for two seconds before opening fire. For **Steophan** , because he may not remember: The person who called in the kid had gun specified that the gun was ‘probably fake’. The dispatcher did not mention this to the officers. The shooter, Officer Timothy Loehmann, was fired from the Police Department for lying on his employment application in 2013. He failed to disclose that he would have been fired from a previous job if he had not quit. Why would he have been fired? > [@](#): > > A Nov. 29, 2012 letter contained in Tim Loehmann’s personnel file from the Independence Police Department says that during firearms qualification training he was “distracted” and “weepy.” > > “ **He could not follow simple directions, could not communicate clear thoughts nor recollections, and his handgun performance was dismal** ,” according to the letter written by Deputy Chief Jim Polak of the Independence police. > > The letter recommended that the department part ways with Loehmann, who went on to become a police officer with the Cleveland Division of Police. > > “I do not believe time, nor training, will be able to change or correct the deficiencies,” Polak said. > [@](#): > > Before joining the Cleveland police force, Officer Loehmann worked for a smaller police department, in Independence, Ohio, where supervisors recommended his termination, citing instances of insubordination, lying and an “inability to emotionally function.” This guy did not have the \*stuff \*to be a police office. The Cleveland PD would have known it if the had read the file as they were supposed to. It looks an awful lot like a guy who was just _itching_ to shoot someone. He may actually have been [this guy](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjoh8ayz5HXAhVI1WMKHY7nCS4QtwIIJjAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DyVFn7F3El8g&usg=AOvVaw2Xf8JtMb5Igifs2tCyUX63). ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2017, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11777 "2017-10-27T20:29:43Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > Whatever finally happened to that so-called “police officer”??? Fired, for not disclosing the fact that his previous employer would have fired him if he hadn’t quit. He was emotional y unsuitable to be a cop. Tamir died, but he saved whoever the cop woulda killed next. ETA: explained more eloquently by Typo above. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2017, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11778 "2017-10-27T20:32:50Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > So, breaking no laws. Not suspected of breaking any laws “looking at driveways” is not a crime. But still harassed by a police officer. Put into handcuffs not because she was a danger, but because she wasn’t polite enough. She cooperated fully, he asked for her ID, and even though she had to dig it out of her bag, causing her to throw the costume in which she was supposed to work on the ground, she complied as quickly as she was able. She did not refuse any of his commands. She did not threaten in any way. She just wan’t polite enough. That was her crime. She was a bit flustered, as she was not expecting to be harrased by a cop that day. She may have been disturbed that he never told her what he was detaining her for. > > He had no right to even ask her for her ID. She was not driving. She was not suspected of any law breaking. She would have been within her rights to refuse to give her ID, but she didn’t. And you call her uncooperative, you stupid, stupid fuck. > > I guess what you wanted to have happen there is that she show her appreciation for the service the cop is providing by giving out sexual favors. > > Not being polite to a cop should not get you in handcuffs. You should be at least suspected of breaking some law before being put into handcuffs. > > But, you support this. > > Well, good news for you bud. I, in the other thread, I have predicted that trump is going to implement a fascist state within the next year or two. That will be awesome for you. The cops will get all the respect they deserve. If some stupid girl on her bike even looks at them funny, they’ll kill her and her family. Won’t that make you the happiest motherfucker on the planet? She was not in any way harassed, don’t be fucking ridiculous. She was treated absolutely fine, the cop was mostly polite, always civil, and used no force. I truly don’t get what could have been done better. And she _was_ a suspect, that’s why she was stopped. There was a quick investigation, and she was let go. That’s how it’s supposed to happen. Handcuffing people is routine for cops. It’s an extremely good way to ensure everyone’s safety, as shown in this incident, which almost certainly went more smoothly due to the handcuffs. Why on earth would you think it’s wrong to cuff someone in that situation? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2017, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11779 "2017-10-27T20:37:19Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > For **Steophan** , because he may not remember: > > The person who called in the kid had gun specified that the gun was ‘probably fake’. The dispatcher did not mention this to the officers. > > The shooter, Officer Timothy Loehmann, was fired from the Police Department for lying on his employment application in 2013. He failed to disclose that he would have been fired from a previous job if he had not quit. Why would he have been fired? > > This guy did not have the \*stuff \*to be a police office. The Cleveland PD would have known it if the had read the file as they were supposed to. It looks an awful lot like a guy who was just _itching_ to shoot someone. He may actually have been [this guy](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjoh8ayz5HXAhVI1WMKHY7nCS4QtwIIJjAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DyVFn7F3El8g&usg=AOvVaw2Xf8JtMb5Igifs2tCyUX63). None of which us evidence that the shooting was wrong. I seem to remember reading that the report that the gun was probably fake wasn’t communicated to the cops who went out, so they wouldn’t have been able to take that into account. Even so, would you risk your life against a gun that sound random person gas described as “probably fake”? Would you demand others should do? ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2017, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11780 "2017-10-27T20:45:55Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > None of which us evidence that the shooting was wrong. And yet the city settled the _ **wrongful death suit** _ for six million dollars. Huh. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2017, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11781 "2017-10-27T20:53:42Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > She was not in any way harassed, don’t be fucking ridiculous. She was treated absolutely fine, the cop was mostly polite, always civil, and used no force. I truly don’t get what could have been done better. > > And she _was_ a suspect, that’s why she was stopped. There was a quick investigation, and she was let go. That’s how it’s supposed to happen. > > Handcuffing people is routine for cops. It’s an extremely good way to ensure everyone’s safety, as shown in this incident, which almost certainly went more smoothly due to the handcuffs. > > Why on earth would you think it’s wrong to cuff someone in that situation? What crime was she suspected of committing? How was she uncooperative? Did she refuse any of his instructions? And to the idea that handcuffing is routine for cops, it fucking shouldn’t be. Handcuffs are for those who pose a danger, not for people who are not falling over themselves with politeness to a cop. Not if they are just asking you some questions. Do you get handcuffed anytime you have a conversation? Why on earth do you think if is appropriate to handcuff someone who is suspected of no crime, poses no danger, not a flight risk (he had her ID). The interaction did not go more smoothly because of the handcuffs. The interaction did not need to go on nearly as long as it did. He didn’t even need to get out. He could have just asked her a couple questions from the interior of his vehicle, instead of making a big production out of it. He was the one who prevented it from being a smooth interaction. He is the one who chose to humiliate her. If by smooth, you mean, oppression demonstrating the point that you must show absolute unquestioning respect for a man with a badge at all times, then yes, but that’s fascism. And facism only goes smoothly for those in charge. Oh, I get it, she wasn’t deferential enough to the cop, so he had to punish her to make a point, that makes sense now, I understand why you would argue for her being cuffed. You do realize that cops are not out there to dole out punishments to the members of the community that do not show them enough respect, right? They actually have a job of preventing and investigating actual crimes. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=588) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=590)