# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 593
**Author:** ![Crazy\_Canuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazy_canuck/32/5282_2.png) [@Crazy\_Canuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazy_Canuck)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2017, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11842 "2017-10-31T17:45:18Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > And yet you still won’t retract your demonstrably false statement that it’s a toy, despite repeatedly having been shown the cites to the contrary. You are deliberately spreading falsehoods, for no good reason. It’s an object people play games with for fun. That’s a toy in my books, and this argument is sad and pedantic even by your standards. > [@Steophan](#): > > It is clear and obvious projection, not everyone is as dishonest as you. Did the irony burn when you typed that? ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2017, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11843 "2017-10-31T18:02:06Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > any sexual activity between a cop and a suspect is grounds for sacking [You really should take care in your word choice.](https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=sacking) ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2017, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11844 "2017-10-31T18:05:12Z")
> [@Crazy\_Canuck](#): > > Sorry for the delay, this thread moves too damn fast and I spent the last few days out with a nasty flu, spewing shit from both ends. Speaking of Steophan … > > Do you even remember that this discussion started over the use of no-knock warrants, where the occupants of the home are not told that it’s the police busting in the doors? I’m not planning on shooting any cops who show up and announce they have a warrant. However, if they don’t identify themselves as such and bust into my house in the middle of the night, I am not refraining from protecting myself just because the people breaking into my house **might** be cops with a warrant. Context is entirely lost on Steophan. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2017, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11845 "2017-10-31T18:05:29Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > [You really should take care in your word choice.](https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=sacking) Well, if it’s an authorised punishment by a court after conviction… ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2017, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11846 "2017-10-31T18:06:47Z")
> [@Crazy\_Canuck](#): > > It’s an object people play games with for fun. That’s a toy in my books, and this argument is sad and pedantic even by your standards. That would make any gun used for target shooting a toy. That’s not a definition I would use, nor one I suspect many people would agree with. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2017, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11847 "2017-10-31T18:11:09Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > When I played with airsoft guns as a kid, we called them toys. If lots of people call something a toy, then it’s a toy. If can also be other things, if other people call it something else, but that’s how language works. There’s no fundamental “toyness” - no scientific definition. Language can be funny that way. I’ll note that the Wikipedia entry for airsoft guns calls them “toy weapons”. With that in mind, perhaps you’d like to retract your claims about me, but I doubt it. [Airsoft gun - Wikipedia](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airsoft_gun) > > I’m sorry for whatever trauma you’ve ensued that has led you to post as such a cowardly and dishonorable liar. I’d be hopeful that the fact that no Dopers have come forward to defend or justify your lies about me, and that many who normally strongly disagree with me on this issue also criticized you for making unsupported statements about me (about black people - of all the things to lie about me, why choose something about black people?) and refusing to back down, would lead you towards some personal growth and capability to admit fault, but you’ve shown no such ability to grow. > > We used to have reasonable and thoughtful discussions, even when we disagreed. And then you lied about me, multiple times, accusing me of dishonesty just for challenging you. What started that? Why are lies better than reasonable discussion? As I’ve repeatedly said, and demonstrated, I’ll willingly admit and apologise when I’m wrong. It happens, and it’s often a learning opportunity. You, on the other hand, repeatedly ignore cites, mischaracterise arguments, and refuse to acknowledge the falsehoods you spread. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2017, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11848 "2017-10-31T18:34:36Z")
There was a rash of muggings in New Haven with “toys” when I lived there. Those victims feared for their lives and would have been justified in defending themselves. Of all the potential instances of police misbehavior out there, I don’t find this one the most compelling hill to die on. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2017, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11849 "2017-10-31T19:04:07Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > As I’ve repeatedly said, and demonstrated, I’ll willingly admit and apologise when I’m wrong. It happens, and it’s often a learning opportunity. So here’s another chance. This is what you said about me: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=20456859#post20456859](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=20456859#post20456859) > [@](#): > > In one of these threads, iiandyiiii has said that having a police force does more harm than good to black communities. I never said that. You never provided a cite that I said that. When I challenged you on it, you said this: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=20462880#post20462880](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=20462880#post20462880) > [@](#): > > I don’t get why people pretend not to have said things they said, assume that people will forget having read their posts, and refuse to stand behind their positions and deal with the consequences of them. Why would you double down on something another poster said without such a cite? Why would you call me dishonest for simply challenging your assertion that was about me personally? Here’s your chance to show that you’re capable of better. You said something about me, and I said that it wasn’t true. You never backed up your statement about me – you just called me dishonest because I challenged you. You say you’re better than this – now you can prove it. > [@](#): > > You, on the other hand, repeatedly ignore cites, mischaracterise arguments, and refuse to acknowledge the falsehoods you spread. Provide some actual evidence for any of this, and I’ll certainly consider it. I’ve also made mistakes before, and I welcome the opportunity to learn from them. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2017, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11850 "2017-10-31T19:26:09Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > That would make any gun used for target shooting a toy. That’s not a definition I would use, nor one I suspect many people would agree with. It would make any gun that you can point at another person, pull the trigger, and no one goes to the morgue or to prison at toy. > [@Steophan](#): > > **Snowboarder Bo** ’s cite said otherwise, making the specific distinction between someone who was detained or arrested and someone imprisoned. It’s possible the laws are different in different states. I misread that part of the article, I though tit was saying that such contact was illegal. I don’t even see it as an oversite, but such an obvious abuse of power, that rational people didn’t think that they would need to code it into the law in order to prevent cops from raping people, but I guess you get enough cop defenders out there, and you can justify alot of crap, and then you actually have to make specific rules stating that cops aren’t allowed to rape people. Odd that we have to have two sets of rules. Non-cops already had a law against rape, but we have to make a very special rule in order to cover cops. I can see how maybe they only committed rape because they were in fear for their life, just like how they murder. > [@](#): > > I’ve yet to see a video of a cop raping someone, and to be honest I don’t think i want to see a video of _anyone_ doing that. [Well, here you go](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8CGiPObmWo). If you make that statement again, it is because you are willfully ignorant. Really, just google, and you can find all the videos you want. Of course, most of the police abuses are not caught on camera, even still, as they don’t all have them, and the know to turn them off before they are going to commit rape. (Most of the time, it is both depressing and heartening when a cop leaves his camera on to commit crimes or plant evidence.) > [@](#): > > If such a video exists, I assume that a jury will see it and make their decision. The only thing I believe that’s relevant is that the defendant, whether a cop or not, no matter what they are charged with, gets all the benefit of the doubt. By which you mean, let to go free no matter the evidence against them. > [@Ruken](#): > > There was a rash of muggings in New Haven with “toys” when I lived there. Those victims feared for their lives and would have been justified in defending themselves. Of all the potential instances of police misbehavior out there, I don’t find this one the most compelling hill to die on. Was Rice mugging anyone with this toy? My friends and I ran around and played with toy guns when we were kids, pointing them at each other and shooting off the caps. A cop would have been exactly as justified about pulling up and shooting us all down as they were killing Tamir. Well, except, we were white, so there’s that… ---
**Author:** ![Crazy\_Canuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazy_canuck/32/5282_2.png) [@Crazy\_Canuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazy_Canuck)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2017, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11851 "2017-10-31T20:01:02Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > That would make any gun used for target shooting a toy. That’s not a definition I would use, nor one I suspect many people would agree with. You know, you do have a point there. It’s not a great one, but there is a point. Since unlike you, I’m actually willing to change my mind or admit when I’m wrong, let me revise my statement slightly. It’s an object people use almost **exclusively for playing games**. That’s still a toy in my books, and this argument is still very sad and still extremely pedantic even by your standards. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2017, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11852 "2017-10-31T20:30:49Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Odd that we have to have two sets of rules. Non-cops already had a law against rape, but we have to make a very special rule in order to cover cops. I can see how maybe they only committed rape because they were in fear for their life, just like how they murder. It would be more like statutory rape laws, defining such conduct as rape, without needing proof that there was no consent, just proof that the sexual activity happened. > [@](#): > > By which you mean, let to go free no matter the evidence against them. Sorry, I’m not watching a video of a rape. I’ll take your word that it exists, and depicts what you say it does. And no, this has never been about letting cops go despite the evidence against them, it’s about letting them go because of the _lack_ of evidence. Same as should happen to anyone. > [@](#): > > Was Rice mugging anyone with this toy? My friends and I ran around and played with toy guns when we were kids, pointing them at each other and shooting off the caps. A cop would have been exactly as justified about pulling up and shooting us all down as they were killing Tamir. Well, except, we were white, so there’s that… No, he was threatening the cops with it. Did you actually bother to watch the videos, read the statements, or look at the findings of the grand jury? It’s not some mystery what happened, it’s been thoroughly investigated and the cops have been cleared. There isn’t any “controversy”, as per the thread title, remaining. He was killed in self defence. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2017, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11853 "2017-10-31T20:34:11Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’ve also made mistakes before, and I welcome the opportunity to learn from them. You could start by acknowledging your mistake about the nature of an Airsoft gun, specifically one modified to look like a real gun. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2017, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11854 "2017-10-31T20:50:56Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > You could start by acknowledging your mistake about the nature of an Airsoft gun, specifically one modified to look like a real gun. So you ignore your own words about me. Why not address it? What are you afraid of? Why did you lie about me, and why are you terrified to talk about it? As for airsoft guns, I understand that the fact that Wikipedia calls them toys really bothers you deeply, but it is a fact, no matter how much you whine about it. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2017, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11855 "2017-10-31T20:52:31Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > It would be more like statutory rape laws, defining such conduct as rape, without needing proof that there was no consent, just proof that the sexual activity happened. > > Sorry, I’m not watching a video of a rape. I’ll take your word that it exists, and depicts what you say it does. > > And no, this has never been about letting cops go despite the evidence against them, it’s about letting them go because of the _lack_ of evidence. Same as should happen to anyone. > > No, he was threatening the cops with it. Did you actually bother to watch the videos, read the statements, or look at the findings of the grand jury? It’s not some mystery what happened, it’s been thoroughly investigated and the cops have been cleared. There isn’t any “controversy”, as per the thread title, remaining. He was killed in self defence. The video did not show Rice threaten the cops in any way, liar. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2017, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11856 "2017-10-31T21:10:16Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The video did not show Rice threaten the cops in any way, liar. He definitely threatened the police with his blackness. I see there was video of some cop harassing a woman, but I can’t watch it at work. I’m having trouble understanding Steophan’s reaction–by any chance was the harassed woman black? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2017, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11857 "2017-10-31T21:21:28Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > It would be more like statutory rape laws, defining such conduct as rape, without needing proof that there was no consent, just proof that the sexual activity happened. > > Sorry, I’m not watching a video of a rape. I’ll take your word that it exists, and depicts what you say it does. What? But it is a cop doing the rape. That should make it all good in your book. Very noticeable that you are willing to go to all lengths to defend them, but asked to look at their actions, you can’t be bothered. Much much easier to defend the actions if you refuse to watch. > [@](#): > > And no, this has never been about letting cops go despite the evidence against them, it’s about letting them go because of the _lack_ of evidence. Same as should happen to anyone. Nah, cops get let go even when there is evidence against them. Even when there is plenty. In fact, you bitch and whine and cry when there is enough evidence for a conviction, beuca you don’t think it was fair. > [@](#): > > No, he was threatening the cops with it. Did you actually bother to watch the videos, read the statements, or look at the findings of the grand jury? It’s not some mystery what happened, it’s been thoroughly investigated and the cops have been cleared. There isn’t any “controversy”, as per the thread title, remaining. He was killed in self defence. So the cops pulled up, at a safe distance, and he pulled out his gun and pointed it at them? No, the cops screeched to a stop in front of him, and shot him before he even knew what was happening. He never had a chance to threaten the cops with it. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2017, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11858 "2017-10-31T21:57:39Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > I see there was video of some cop harassing a woman, but I can’t watch it at work. I’m having trouble understanding Steophan’s reaction–by any chance was the harassed woman black? No, but she was, zOMG, riding a bicycle. Bicycle riders are the negros of society. Nobody seems to give them any quarter. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2017, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11859 "2017-10-31T22:31:02Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > [:There’s even video of her getting out of the van. > > [url=[Two Cops Got Charged with Rape After a Teen's Desperate Public Plea](https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/evbvem/two-cops-got-charged-with-rape-after-a-teens-desperate-public-plea)]VICE also has a story about this](]New York City here[/url):Of course the young lady’s social media accounts are being watched and pored over for something that can help the defense. And there was a delay in arresting the officers. But that’s not the most controversial thing here; this is::eek:😕:mad: I understand those two pieces of shit have been found guilty. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2017, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11860 "2017-10-31T23:03:58Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > And no, this has never been about letting cops go despite the evidence against them, it’s about letting them go because of the _lack_ of evidence. Same as should happen to anyone. You don’t see the issue? It’s the cops that collect the evidence. Or don’t collect it. They decide what is and is not evidence. As seen many times in this thread, they have planted it, they have destroyed it, they have lied about it. They only evidence against cops is video captured on citizen’s cell phones. And we have seen numerous examples about the cops trying to stop THAT. Saying ‘Same as should happen to anyone’ seems purposely naive. Willfully ignorant. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2017, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11861 "2017-10-31T23:45:23Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > I understand those two pieces of shit have been found guilty. The stories I linked say that the two pled not guilty and were released on bail yesterday. Where did you find this information that led to your understanding of the situation? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=592) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=594)