# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 60
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2015, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/1181 "2015-03-19T11:32:25Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Of course not. But after Eric Garner, Tamir Rice, and a shit load of other stories about impulsively violent cops, I do have to wonder if she’s living in a cave somewhere. > > If current events have taught me anything it’s that people should not call the cops unless someone getting seriously hurt is an acceptable risk. Especially if black people are involved. Honestly looking at the many examples in this thread. Calling cops on a “black dude” for doing normal everyday things (that all citizens have the right to do) is something akin to “soft [swatting](https://www.google.ca/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=swatting).” I know it supposed to be better than going Zimmerman on someone (stalk and shoot down some poor kid), but police can have the same fears, be fed shit info, be violently belligerent, and finally they are shielded from any lawful repercussion. “How to get away with murder 101” Set up some lawful harassment of someone using a mix of fear + race. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2015, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/1182 "2015-03-19T13:23:40Z")
> [@Shalmanese](#): > > [Wisconsin police officer kills suspect on first day back after previous shooting](http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/mar/17/wisconsin-police-officer-kills-suspect-first-day-back-previous-shooting). Clearly, he should have allowed the armed fugitive he was pursuing to kill him for the sake of appearances. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2015, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/1183 "2015-03-19T13:26:24Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > [UVA student fucked up for the horrible crime of trying to gain entry into a pub while underage (and black)](http://www.dailyprogress.com/news/local/uva-student-martese-johnson-bloodied-during-arrest-by-abc-agents/article_cd981c10-cda5-11e4-a80b-93db28a3b7b2.html) So an underage person who was already drunk and disorderly got into a scuffle with the bouncers and nicked himself when they subdued him _unarmed_. What’s the controversy here? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2015, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/1184 "2015-03-19T13:31:55Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > So an underage person who was already drunk and disorderly got into a scuffle with the bouncers and nicked himself when they subdued him _unarmed_. > > What’s the controversy here? At least part of the controversy is that what you described is totally different than the events of the article. Not surprised that you knee-jerk towards supporting any authority that injures a person, but usually your lies aren’t so obviously manufactured out of nothing, like something about “a scuffle with bouncers”. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2015, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/1185 "2015-03-19T13:37:16Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > At least part of the controversy is that what you described is totally different than the events of the article. Which part? His being underage, his being drunk, his being disorderly, his fighting with the people whose job it is to keep people like him out, his being wrestled to the ground by unarmed men, or his getting nicked on the forehead? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2015, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/1186 "2015-03-19T13:43:23Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Which part? His being underage, his being drunk, his being disorderly, his fighting with the people whose job it is to keep people like him out, his being wrestled to the ground by unarmed men, or his getting nicked on the forehead? You made up shit about “bouncers”. No idea why. That article said nothing about bouncers. It also said nothing about being “disorderly”, or him “fighting”. You just made up shit, just like you [made up shit](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18213525&postcount=1105) about what I posted earlier. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2015, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/1187 "2015-03-19T13:45:24Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > You made up shit about “bouncers”. No idea why. That article said nothing about bouncers. What word would you use to describe the ABC agents? > [@](#): > > It also said nothing about being “disorderly”, or him “fighting”. What words would you use to describe the charges of obstruction of justice and public swearing? ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2015, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/1188 "2015-03-19T13:45:21Z")
duplicate glitch ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2015, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/1189 "2015-03-19T13:48:01Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Which part? His being underage, his being drunk, his being disorderly, his fighting with the people whose job it is to keep people like him out, his being wrestled to the ground by unarmed men, or his getting nicked on the forehead? 1. Underage. OK, this is your blind-squirrel acorn find for the day. 2. Drunk. Not supported by the article, which lists a charge of “swearing/intoxication” (i.e. one or the other, with no indication of which). 3. Disorderly. Specifically contraindicated by the article (“misdemeanor obstruction of justice _without force_”). 4. Fighting. Specifically contraindicated by the article (see previous) 5. Wrestled. Specifically contraindicated by the article (“He found himself suddenly _flung to the ground_.”) 6. Nicked. Specifically contraindicated by the article (“blood painting his face and creating a pool on the bricks of the corner”). So… you score 16.67%, for an F Minus. This is [actually a fairly impressive achievement](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FourPointScale), in a way: > [@](#): > > Think of just how hard it is to actually get lower than 60% on an assignment. Even if you hand in complete crap for your essay on the Punic Wars, it will be hard to get much lower than 60%. For you to get under 60%, you pretty much have to turn in something that goes beyond “not being good”. Unless you forget to include the last 3 pages of your essay, and accuse Napoleon Bonaparte of engineering the Punic Wars to cause the September 11 attacks, all written in another language with ink made from cat urine, you probably did enough to avoid a score of less than 60%. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2015, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/1190 "2015-03-19T13:52:41Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > 1. Drunk. Not supported by the article, which lists a charge of “swearing/intoxication” (i.e. one or the other, with no indication of which). And yet, per your complaints about 3 and 4, you somehow assert that he was _neither_. > [@](#): > > 1. Disorderly. Specifically contraindicated by the article (“misdemeanor obstruction of justice without force”). If he wasn’t intoxicated, then he was swearing, which is disorderly. > [@](#): > > 1. Fighting. Specifically contraindicated by the article (see previous) If he wasn’t intoxicated, then he was swearing, which is fighting. > [@](#): > > 1. Wrestled. Specifically contraindicated by the article (“He found himself suddenly _flung to the ground_.”) “Suddenly flung to the ground”. In other words, _wrestled_. > [@](#): > > 1. Nicked. Specifically contraindicated by the article (“blood painting his face and creating a pool on the bricks of the corner”). Speaking of wrestling, do you realize how easy it is to completely cover your own face in blood? [All you have to do](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blading_(professional_wrestling)) is nick yourself above the eyebrow with a razor blade and let the blood mix with the sweat [and you’ve got yourself a crimson mask.](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/SDj9p5Mte6Y/hqdefault.jpg) It takes a remarkably minor injury to produce the amount of blood seen in that photo. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2015, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/1191 "2015-03-19T13:54:03Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > What word would you use to describe the ABC agents? Certainly not “bouncers”. Do you even know what bouncers (or ABC agents) are? > [@](#): > > What words would you use to describe the charges of obstruction of justice and public swearing? Not “fighting” (which involves violence, and there’s no indication that the man was violent), and not “disorderly” (which implies a criminal charge that was not included in this case). So not the words you chose. You just made shit up. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2015, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/1192 "2015-03-19T13:55:35Z")
Swearing is not fighting. Swearing is not even “disorderly”, legally speaking. You’re just full of shit, **Smapti**. You’re incapable of thinking rationally on issues like this. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2015, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/1193 "2015-03-19T14:00:18Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Certainly not “bouncers”. Do you even know what bouncers (or ABC agents) are? A bouncer’s job is to keep people out who don’t belong there or are causing trouble. An ABC agent’s job is to keep people out who don’t belong there or are causing trouble. > [@](#): > > Not “fighting” (which involves violence, and there’s no indication that the man was violent) I was not aware that “fighting” was inherently and exclusively an act of violence; [QUOTE=The dictionary] to contend in any manner; strive vigorously for or against something [/QUOTE] > [@](#): > > and not “disorderly” (which implies a criminal charge that was not included in this case). I was not aware that “disorderly” was inherently a description of criminal activity; [QUOTE=The dictionary] unruly; turbulent; tumultuous [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2015, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/1194 "2015-03-19T14:03:51Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > A bouncer’s job is to keep people out who don’t belong there or are causing trouble. > > An ABC agent’s job is to keep people out who don’t belong there or are causing trouble. Nope. A bouncer is private security at a restaurant, bar, or similar. An ABC agent is a government official charged with enforcing the laws and regulations of the ABC board. It’s as ridiculous to say they’re the same thing as it would be to say a Mayor and Janitor are the same because they both “take out the trash”, literally or figuratively. > [@](#): > > I was not aware that “fighting” was inherently and exclusively an act of violence; In the context of law enforcement (which was how you used it), it inherently and exclusively is, absolutely. > [@](#): > > I was not aware that “disorderly” was inherently a description of criminal activity; In the context of law enforcement (which was how you used it), it inherently and exclusively is, absolutely. Your posts are dishonest and irrational, and your defense of them is even more so. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2015, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/1195 "2015-03-19T14:05:48Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > he was swearing, which is disorderly. > [@](#): > > he was swearing, which is fighting “…Napoleon’s main tactic in the Punic Wars was to repeatedly shout ‘Merde!’, a fighting technique which cast Europe into disorder…” **sniff** I’ll finish grading your essay later, Smapti; the catbox needs cleaning… ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2015, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/1196 "2015-03-19T14:06:42Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Nope. A bouncer is private security at a restaurant, bar, or similar. An ABC agent is a government official charged with enforcing the laws and regulations of the ABC board. Their jobs in the context of preventing underage drinking are the same. Are you saying that you wouldn’t have a problem with this incident if it had been an employee of the bar that took him down rather than a state employee? > [@](#): > > In the context of law enforcement (which was how you used it), it inherently and exclusively is, absolutely. > > In the context of law enforcement (which was how you used it), it inherently and exclusively is, absolutely. I’m sorry, I wasn’t aware that I had become an agent of the court and was engaged in filing charges against the man in question. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2015, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/1197 "2015-03-19T14:12:04Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Their jobs in the context of preventing underage drinking are the same. No they’re not. Keep digging, if you like, or just admit that you shouldn’t have called the ABC agents “bouncers”. > [@](#): > > Are you saying that you wouldn’t have a problem with this incident if it had been an employee of the bar that took him down rather than a state employee? No, I’m not saying this – I’m saying you’re a serially dishonest and irrational poster, and this is just another example. You made stuff up about what I posted, and now you’ve made stuff up about the article describing this incident. > [@](#): > > I’m sorry, I wasn’t aware that I had become an agent of the court and was engaged in filing charges against the man in question. You never were – you were engaged in a discussion about inappropriate actions of law enforcement, and in such a discussion, “fighting” inherently includes physical violence, and “disorderly” has a criminal implication. Keep digging, or just admit that you used incorrect terminology. There might be a reasonable defense of the actions of the ABC agents in this incident, but you seem incapable of presenting one (and incapable of _not lying_ about the incident). ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2015, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/1198 "2015-03-19T14:15:39Z")
Giving that wrestling a person to the ground seems to be fairly described by “turbulent”, and that it also seems like “striving vigorously for or against something”, it would be correct to say that the ABC fellows in this case were also disorderly and fought, wouldn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2015, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/1199 "2015-03-19T14:17:36Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > No they’re not. Keep digging, if you like, or just admit that you shouldn’t have called the ABC agents “bouncers”. What’s more important to you here? Proving that the arrest was unjust, or proving that Smapti used a word wrong? > [@](#): > > You never were – you were engaged in a discussion about inappropriate actions of law enforcement, and in such a discussion, “fighting” inherently includes physical violence, and “disorderly” has a criminal implication. If I were a prosecutor filing charges, maybe. I’m not. I’m a civilian speaking colloquially with words that have more than one meaning. > [@](#): > > There might be a reasonable defense of the actions of the ABC agents in this incident) I have presented one. Either refute it or continue to harp on my word usage like it proves something. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2015, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/1200 "2015-03-19T14:21:45Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > What’s more important to you here? Proving that the arrest was unjust, or proving that Smapti is wrong? I don’t know if the arrest was unjust. Based on the article, I want to see an investigation. As to your posts, I want you to do better. To try and motivate you to do better, I will continue to point out your serial dishonesty and irrational posting. > [@](#): > > If I were a prosecutor filing charges, maybe. I’m not. I’m a civilian speaking colloquially with words that have more than one meaning. Then you chose very poorly. “Fighting” definitely implies physical violence – and if you recognize that there’s no reason to believe the arrested man was physically violent, then you should include that in your posts. It’s an important point that he was not resisting the officers (which the article indicates). You might think it’s okay for government agents and law enforcement to be physically violent towards non-violent people, but most people don’t. > [@](#): > > I have presented one. Either refute it or continue to harp on my word usage like it proves something. You presented a dishonest one. If you present an honest defense, then I’ll consider it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=59) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=61)