# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 600
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2017, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11982 "2017-12-28T20:13:07Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > W But the high correlation between poverty rates and getting shot by police is hard to ignore. They seem to be doing a pretty job of it. ---
**Author:** ![HelenGawn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a88e4f/32.png) [@HelenGawn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HelenGawn)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2017, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11983 "2017-12-28T20:15:06Z")
> [@Bayard](#): > > Cops in Grand Rapids, MI were out looking for a suspect in a homicide. The person they were looking for is a 40 year old white woman. Somehow, while canvassing the neighborhood, the cops end up drawing their guns and cuffing an 11 year old black girl. She was, apparently, coming toward them too fast. She was walking toward them backwards, with her hands up, as they had ordered. I guess they were concerned about the threat posed to them by the 11 year old girl. AFAICT neither the 11 year old girl nor her mom were suspected of a crime. I don’t know what happened prior to the start of the video that may have caused the two armed, trained police officers to regard the 11 year old girl as a threat. > > [https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2017/12/13/video-shows-officers-handcuffing-a-shrieking-11-year-old-at-gunpoint/?tid=sm\_fb&utm\_term=.efc78a519c7c](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2017/12/13/video-shows-officers-handcuffing-a-shrieking-11-year-old-at-gunpoint/?tid=sm_fb&utm_term=.efc78a519c7c) Never thought I’d long for the days of the unjustified patdown. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2017, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11984 "2017-12-28T20:27:35Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > How so? "Keep your hands where I can see them"seems like a reasonable request Sure it does. But “reaching toward his waistband for what may or may not be a gun” as a grounds to shoot someone is not a reasonable standard that I believe police should be trained to. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2017, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11985 "2017-12-29T01:50:13Z")
[AP story here](https://apnews.com/95d6b015dccc44be8d11c1909d915974/Prosecutor-needs-longer-on-cop's-killing-of-Australian-woman) > [@](#): > > A Minnesota prosecutor said Thursday that he needs more time to decide whether to charge a police officer who fatally shot an Australian woman after she called 911 for help. > [@](#): > > Hennepin County Attorney Mike Freeman had promised a charging decision by year’s end. But on Thursday, he said his office was “getting more information and evidence, and additional investigation must be completed.” > > “The investigation and review of the case will not be rushed,” he said in a statement. > > Freeman was captured on video two weeks ago at a holiday reception saying investigators hadn’t brought him enough evidence to warrant charging the officer. On Thursday, he set no new timetable for a charging decision but said he had spoken with Damond’s family to inform them of the delay. > > Damond’s family released a statement saying her relatives in Australia and the U.S., including her fiance in Minneapolis, supported Freeman’s decision. They said they want the investigation concluded as soon as possible “so that we have some resolution to the tragedy.” > > “We want justice and appreciate the support from all those who want the same. We ask for the public’s patience to allow the investigation to continue,” the family statement said. For those that don’t remember or don’t want to click the link and read the article, Miss Damond is the woman who called police to report a possible sexual assault in an alleyway and was shot and killed by one of the responding officers. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2017, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11986 "2017-12-29T02:40:02Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > Hmmmm - previously fired from a police force, for unsatisfactory performance. > > Is that some sort of trend now? It seems to have happened before … We see it so often, I wonder if the prior firing is used as a _positive_ hiring qualification by some forces. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2017, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11987 "2017-12-29T13:33:18Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > We see it so often, I wonder if the prior firing is used as a _positive_ hiring qualification by some forces. [Yes.](https://www.wcpo.com/news/local-news/hamilton-county/cincinnati/sheriff-richard-jones-says-hed-consider-hiring-ray-tensing-recommends-he-sue-uc-for-his-job-) ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2017, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11988 "2017-12-29T14:19:56Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Well shoot, you hid the cite under the word “cite” How the hell was I supposed to figure THAT out. It would have worked, too - if it weren’t for you meddling _kids_! Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2017, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11989 "2017-12-29T23:01:11Z")
Video game ‘swatting’ leads to non-gamer getting shot by Wichita police: [Police investigating if Call of Duty dispute led to deadly swatting incident](http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2017/12/29/police_investigating_if_call_of_duty_dispute_led_to_deadly_swatting_incident.html) Call of Duty, two people talking smack, one threatens to ‘swat’ the other (call in a fake crisis to get the police to raid a house). The threatened player gives a fake address claiming a shooting and hostages, a single (?) officer shows up and a 28 year old ends up shot. No details of what led to the shooting yet. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2017, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11990 "2017-12-29T23:19:23Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Sure it does. But “reaching toward his waistband for what may or may not be a gun” as a grounds to shoot someone is not a reasonable standard that I believe police should be trained to. I’m not an expert but when all the experts say that this poses a real threat, then we can just ignore the opinions of all the experts or we can substitute our own judgment. Heck plenty of people do the same thing with global warming so why not police procedure too. Still shooting a guy who is face down on the ground and reaching for his waistband seem unreasonable. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2017, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11991 "2017-12-29T23:24:57Z")
So, for the pro-police side of the debate here. Which cases of police killing civilians do you think were not justified? Which of them do you think wouldn’t have justified if it was a civilian delivering the killing shot in the same situation. For the police critics, how many police shootings do you think have been criticized in the press? How many have caused marches? ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2017, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11992 "2017-12-29T23:29:21Z")
> [@Folacin](#): > > Video game ‘swatting’ leads to non-gamer getting shot by Wichita police: [Police investigating if Call of Duty dispute led to deadly swatting incident](http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2017/12/29/police_investigating_if_call_of_duty_dispute_led_to_deadly_swatting_incident.html) > > Call of Duty, two people talking smack, one threatens to ‘swat’ the other (call in a fake crisis to get the police to raid a house). The threatened player gives a fake address claiming a shooting and hostages, a single (?) officer shows up and a 28 year old ends up shot. No details of what led to the shooting yet. Obviously the prick who phone in a fake crisis needs to face some sort of consequence, but still, isn’t there at least some procedure for establishing that there is, in fact, a crisis in progress? ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2017, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11993 "2017-12-29T23:38:13Z")
Here’s an article about the Wichita shooting: > **[Family says son killed by police in ‘swatting’ was unarmed, didn’t play video...](https://www.kansas.com/news/local/crime/article192147194.html)** > > Blue and red lights flashed outside of the McCormick Street house just after 6 p.m. on Thursday. Curious of what was going on – Andrew Finch, 28, opened the door. I just don’t see any reason why the officer fired his gun. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2017, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11994 "2017-12-30T00:40:20Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I’m not an expert but when all the experts say that this poses a real threat, then we can just ignore the opinions of all the experts or we can substitute our own judgment How does “possibly reaching for what may or may not be a gun” pose a real threat? ---
**Author:** ![UCBearcats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/77aa72/32.png) [@UCBearcats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UCBearcats)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2017, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11995 "2017-12-30T03:00:32Z")
> [@Folacin](#): > > Video game ‘swatting’ leads to non-gamer getting shot by Wichita police: [Police investigating if Call of Duty dispute led to deadly swatting incident](http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2017/12/29/police_investigating_if_call_of_duty_dispute_led_to_deadly_swatting_incident.html) > > Call of Duty, two people talking smack, one threatens to ‘swat’ the other (call in a fake crisis to get the police to raid a house). The threatened player gives a fake address claiming a shooting and hostages, a single (?) officer shows up and a 28 year old ends up shot. > No details of what led to the shooting yet. These fucking idiots are out of control. When cops do this, they should ultimately be stoned by the public that will pay millions in the wrongful death suit. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2017, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11996 "2017-12-30T03:52:17Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > Here’s an article about the Wichita shooting: > [http://www.kansas.com/news/local/crime/article192147194.html](http://www.kansas.com/news/local/crime/article192147194.html) > > I just don’t see any reason why the officer fired his gun. “I was scared” That’s the standard now. An imagined threat is a threat. I’m not saying that an officer’s job is easy - I wouldn’t want to be an officer. Still, they’re working in the public interest and public trust. If “I was scared” doesn’t work for the average person - and it doesn’t - then it shouldn’t work for an officer, who’s supposed to have more training. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2017, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11997 "2017-12-30T04:00:20Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > “I was scared” > > That’s the standard now. An imagined threat is a threat. That’s why the standard should be “I saw a gun and it was pointed in my direction” ---
**Author:** ![UCBearcats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/77aa72/32.png) [@UCBearcats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UCBearcats)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2017, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11998 "2017-12-30T04:07:34Z")
> [@Folacin](#): > > Video game ‘swatting’ leads to non-gamer getting shot by Wichita police: [Police investigating if Call of Duty dispute led to deadly swatting incident](http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2017/12/29/police_investigating_if_call_of_duty_dispute_led_to_deadly_swatting_incident.html) > > Call of Duty, two people talking smack, one threatens to ‘swat’ the other (call in a fake crisis to get the police to raid a house). The threatened player gives a fake address claiming a shooting and hostages, a single (?) officer shows up and a 28 year old ends up shot. No details of what led to the shooting yet. > [@Slash1972](#): > > That’s why the standard should be “I saw a gun and it was pointed in my direction” Unfortunately, any shiny or metallic object is a “gun”. Keys, cell phone, or a handful of change could all be considered a weapon. The killers need to be tried and convicted. They need to lose their job and pensions. The chief of the department needs to be sacked too. Ultimately they cannot be allowed to resign and move to another department. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2017, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/11999 "2017-12-30T04:24:32Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > That’s why the standard should be “I saw a gun and it was pointed in my direction” No argument - that used to be the standard. But IIRC there’s been some “guru” who has gone around the country training departments and this guy’s message is that an officer’s #1 job is to get home alive - everything else comes second. As someone who personally knows an officer who died in the line of duty, and as someone who’s known several officers and all the dangers they face, I want officers to return home alive. But that can’t be more important than the job of protecting public safety, which means they can’t be just as dangerous as the criminals they’re pursuing. If the standard for police work is “I was afraid”, we are all in serious danger. It could be any of us. You get stopped in a routine traffic stop. An officer asks for your license and registration. You reach into your glove box and the officer "thinks’ he sees something that looks like a firearm and starts unloading his clip into your thorax. ---
**Author:** ![UCBearcats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/77aa72/32.png) [@UCBearcats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UCBearcats)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2017, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12000 "2017-12-30T04:35:45Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > No argument - that used to be the standard. But IIRC there’s been some “guru” who has gone around the country training departments and this guy’s message is that an officer’s #1 job is to get home alive - everything else comes second. > > As someone who personally knows an officer who died in the line of duty, and as someone who’s known several officers and all the dangers they face, I want officers to return home alive. But that can’t be more important than the job of protecting public safety, which means they can’t be just as dangerous as the criminals they’re pursuing. > > If the standard for police work is “I was afraid”, we are all in serious danger. It could be any of us. You get stopped in a routine traffic stop. An officer asks for your license and registration. You reach into your glove box and the officer "thinks’ he sees something that looks like a firearm and starts unloading his clip into your thorax. Screw them getting home alive. They signed up for protecting and serving the public. Getting their jollies off killing unarmed citizens should not go unpunished. They need to be held to the highest standard. ---
**Author:** ![eulalia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eulalia/32/457_2.png) [@eulalia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eulalia)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2017, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12001 "2017-12-30T07:23:18Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > Obviously the prick who phone in a fake crisis needs to face some sort of consequence, but still, isn’t there at least some procedure for establishing that there is, in fact, a crisis in progress? That’s what the Loveland CO police did in the case I was a juror on last month. They had a detective observe the scene for long enough to make sure it was a legitimate call, because they had had a swatting call a month earlier. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=599) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=601)