# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 607
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2018, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12122 "2018-01-04T22:14:13Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Even if that were true, so what? They know what they are getting into when they sign up to be cops. And what experts? You don’t need to be an expert to come up with “If you are scared for your life, even if you don’t see a gun, even if the guy is laying on the ground with his hands up begging you not to shoot him, just shoot him. And then say you were scared for your life. Sure, a citizen that you are supposed to be protecting might be dead, but you’ll still be alive, and that’s what counts!” It sounds like you are talking about the Daniel Shaver case and I think that was probably a bad shooting but the guy was not laying on the ground with his hands up. He was on his knees when he reached for his waist in what seemed like an attempt to pull up his pants or something. Bad shootings happen. What percentage of the 1000 people shot to death by police each year do you think were killed unjustifiably? > [@](#): > > What kind of a degree do I need to develop that awesome procedure? Best practices are probably developed by consultants that see different situations from a wide range of clients. > [@](#): > > I may be persuaded to let cops shoot people who have a clearly recognizable gun pointed at other people as well :rolleyes: OK how many of those 1000 times do you think the cop should have waited until the gun was pointed at the cop or anyone else before shooting? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2018, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12123 "2018-01-04T22:22:21Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Death is a foreseeable consequence of swatting someone. … Because we all know how trigger happy cops are, am I right? > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > … I would call it depraved indifference to loss of human life. … If it is accepted that the expectation is that someone probably dies if the cops are called. Because everybody knows how triggy happy those fellas are! > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > … Second degree murder. > … I’ll leave that for a prosecutor and a defense lawer to argue. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2018, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12124 "2018-01-04T22:25:33Z")
> [@SaneBill](#): > > Very funny. You just made all your other posts meaningless. :rolleyes: How so oh judicator of all that is meaningful? Cops treat armed white dudes differently than armed black dudes. Do you want me to do a youtube search for you? I still remember the bundy guy that got shot after reaching for his gun 2 or 3 times. A black dude would have been shot much sooner. I still remember watching a video of a cop with both hands in front of him talking down a nervous white dude who HAD HIS FUCKING HAND ON HIS HOLSTERED GUN. Here is what a cursory google search brought up. Can you IMAGINE a black dude with a gun taunting cops like that? > **[Here's What Happens When a Black Man Open Carries Gun](https://www.thedailybeast.com/heres-what-happens-when-a-black-man-open-carries-gun)** > > A disturbing video contrasts police treatment of a white man and a black man carrying the same type of weapon in public. And I count this black dude as really fucking lucky. White people with guns are not treated like black people with guns unless those black people are with a bunch of white people. Its pretty much how they passed gun control in California by showing a bunch of black panthers with gun walking around like they had the same rights as white people. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2018, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12125 "2018-01-04T22:30:37Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > Because we all know how trigger happy cops are, am I right? > > If it is accepted that the expectation is that someone probably dies if the cops are called. Because everybody knows how triggy happy those fellas are! Its not a certainty but SWAT is a tactical unit. I don’t know if you know what that means. Sure most of the time nothing will come of it but a huge pain in the ass but all you need is one bad mistake and boom someone is dead. > [@](#): > > I’ll leave that for a prosecutor and a defense lawer to argue. So, no opinion on this anymore? This guy is just as if not more culpable that the cop that actually did the shooting because the cop is going into the situation thinking its a dangerous situation and this asshat put him in that position. ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2018, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12126 "2018-01-04T22:31:41Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > That is a good way to get a lot of dead cops. But no, I think we should do things the way you want because all those experts probably have no idea what they are talking about when they create the procedures that keep cops alive. > > Of the approximately 1000 people killed by cops every year, how many of those times do you think the cops should have waited until the cops saw a gun pointed in their direction before shooting? Here’s what bugs me about this. How good do we think cops _are_? That is, if I’m an armed criminal, and I get to choose when to attack a cop, I’m going to wait until I think I have at least some chance of success. And so even if the average cop is an amazing shot, has great body armor, is very observant, some percentage of the time, the criminal will prevail. So whether or not cops are shooting too many people should be _measurable_. It’s actually fairly simple math. First, at what threshold is a cop actually threatened? Keeping in mind that any planning criminal can kill a cop whenever they want, if they don’t care about getting away with it, is the threshold 5%? Let’s just say the threshold should be 5%. Then on average, over a long enough timespan, for every 20 people the police gun down, at least 1 officer needs to have been gunned down by a suspect the officer could have shot. If cops are shooting more often than that, you need to tighten policies so cops are more reluctant to shoot. If they are shooting less often, same in reverse. Or you could measure this other ways. For example, if the cops are shooting people who might be a threat, maybe we should measure the cost by how often they shoot people who were not a threat. And then equate it to cop lives and civilian lives. So if a cop life is worth 10 civilian lives, for every 10 wrongful police shootings, there needs to be at least 1 cop who died from a shooting. It just seems like there ought to be some rational way we can go about figuring out the optimum point. There’s a clear tradeoff here. For example, if we thought cops were worth infinitely more than any civilian, we could give them the right to just shoot anyone who doesn’t have their hands up and is lying on the ground within 5 seconds. If we thought cops were worth about the same as civilians, we could probably order them not to carry weapons except when responding to an active shooting. (they would have to keep their guns locked in the truck of the cruiser) Of course, there are difficult to model effects from this. Let’s say we just give every cop a blanket license to kill with no bag limit. Once the cops murder enough civilians, we’d have Civil War II, where the majority of the populance would be in an outright war against the police, similar to Syria. Similarly, if cops stop shooting people wrongfully at all, and criminals know they can just hold cops at gunpoint without firing to get away…there might actually be _less_ police deaths if the police were not armed. Escalating a situation causes escalation. Right now, if the police corner a criminal who’s not willing to go to jail, the criminal’s only means of escape is to kill the cop. No other course of action works, because the moment you pull a gun on a cop, you need to fire it or die yourself. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2018, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12127 "2018-01-04T22:41:56Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > … > So, no opinion on this anymore? … I have no opinion of the specific charge you mentioned. Lawyers can have that. (My opinion is that the swatter is responsible for having the cops there, the cops are responsible for their actions.) ---
**Author:** ![SaneBill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e68b1a/32.png) [@SaneBill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SaneBill)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2018, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12128 "2018-01-04T22:42:08Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > If you have a right to own a gun, that means the cops don’t have a right to shoot you just for holding it, right? > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Only if you’re white. Then they yell at you to drop your gun. So you were not joking when you said that cops DO HAVE A RIGHT to shoot a black person for owning a gun ? ( And even whites can’t carry a gun they own ) ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2018, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12129 "2018-01-04T23:10:21Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > So, no opinion on this anymore? This guy is just as if not more culpable that the cop that actually did the shooting because the cop is going into the situation thinking its a dangerous situation and this asshat put him in that position. Pretty sure the prosecutors can get Felony Murder in a walk. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2018, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12130 "2018-01-05T01:59:48Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > What percentage of the 1000 people shot to death by police each year do you think were killed unjustifiably? I said nothing about unjustifiable shootings. > [@](#): > > OK how many of those 1000 times do you think the cop should have waited until the gun was pointed at the cop or anyone else before shooting? :rolleyes: Being pointed at someone was not my condition. Actually SEEING a gun was my condition. All of those 1000 times, the cop should have waited until he AT A MINIMUM actually saw a weapon before shooting the person. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2018, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12131 "2018-01-05T04:41:53Z")
> [@UCBearcats](#): > > How many of those people were in the wrong place at the wrong time and met the wrong cop who wanted to kill someone? None, to any reasonable approximation. As in, it may have happened a handful of times throughout history, but is so rare as to be irrelevant. Just like with any other killings, even proven murders - so few are random, just shooting a man in Reno just to watch him die type killings, that they should be ignored as a risk factor. People don’t, as a rule, kill for the fun of it. That’s why armies and propagandists in wartime have to spend so long dehumanising the enemy, and psychologically preparing soldiers to kill. People kill either because they feel that a particular person deserves to be killed, or because of strong emotion, such as anger, jealousy or fear. Yes, obviously there are exceptions. But they are extremely uncommon. You need to study some basic psychology. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2018, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12132 "2018-01-05T04:45:21Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > All of those 1000 times, the cop should have waited until he AT A MINIMUM actually saw a weapon before shooting the person. Why do you want to hold cops to a different standard than other people? The standard, as you know by now, is _imminent_ threat, not actual current threat. It’s quite possible to reasonably believe someone is armed and ready to use the weapon without seeing it. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2018, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12133 "2018-01-05T05:01:06Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > When? AFAICT, reaching for what may be a gun has been a shootable offense since forever. > **Cite? I thought this was a a pretty broadly held “best practice”** > Clearly the fear has to be reasonable. The problem might be that it is too easy to establish reasonable fear for their life. _[https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/15/us/minnesota-police-officers-bulletproof-warrior-training-is-questioned.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/15/us/minnesota-police-officers-bulletproof-warrior-training-is-questioned.html)_ **Minnesota Police Officer’s ‘Bulletproof Warrior’ Training Is Questioned** ST. PAUL — The Minnesota police officer who fatally shot an African-American man during a traffic stop last week had recently undergone specialized training that critics say can lead officers to believe they are under constant threat of being harmed and can intensify encounters with civilians. The officer, Jeronimo Yanez, of the Police Department in St. Anthony, Minn., shot and killed Philando Castile after a traffic stop in nearby Falcon Heights, Minn., on July 6. The shooting is being investigated by the Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension. The Justice Department has said it is monitoring the case. Policing tactics have been under heightened scrutiny since the fatal police shooting in Ferguson, Mo., of Michael Brown, an unarmed African-American teenager, in August 2014. The police officer in that encounter was not indicted but the department was sharply criticized for its tactics in a report by the Justice Department. Since then, many police departments across the country, with encouragement from the Justice Department, have opted for what they refer to as a guardian mentality, in which de-escalation of potentially violent situations and similar techniques are emphasized. Some departments, however, believe that a more traditional and aggressive so-called warrior approach is necessary. Officer Yanez underwent a two-day training course called “The Bulletproof Warrior” in May 2014, according to records from the City of St. Anthony, a suburb near St. Paul. The training combined the two approaches. The Minneapolis Star Tribune first reported that Officer Yanez took the course. It was conducted by a company called Calibre Press in Glen Ellyn, Ill., owned by Jim Glennon, a former police lieutenant in Lombard, Ill., according to its website. … “Courses like this reinforce the thinking that everyone is out to get police officers,” said Chuck Wexler, executive director of the Police Executive Research Forum, a research and policy organization based in Washington. “This teaches officers, ‘If you hesitate, you could lose your life.’ It is the exact opposite of the way many police chiefs are going.” The “Bulletproof Warrior” booklet handed out at the company’s seminars addresses warfare as much as police work. A copy of the booklet was obtained by The New York Times. It has charts and graphs on “Combat Efficiency” and “Perceptual Distortions in Combat.” The booklet portrays a world of constant and increased threat to officers, despite more than two decades of declining violent crime in the United States, and the fact that the last few years have been among the safest to be an American police officer. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2018, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12134 "2018-01-05T05:02:41Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > At least one of them was shot in the back as he ran away. There was video of one, at least. That cop “was scared” too. He was so scared he emptied the gun in the guy’s back and then tried to plant something by the still warm corpse. And it’s all on video. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2018, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12135 "2018-01-05T05:20:36Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > That cop “was scared” too. He was so scared he emptied the gun in the guy’s back and then tried to plant something by the still warm corpse. And it’s all on video. His taser. I think he meant to claim that the suspect had wrested the taser from him in a scuffle and was making off with a dangerous weapon, hence he had to be stopped. Or perhaps it was theft of city property. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2018, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12136 "2018-01-05T13:45:19Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Why do you want to hold cops to a different standard than other people? Because they are cops. More authority = more responsibility = held to a higher standard. I also hold our elected officials to a higher standard than a random moron blog poster on the Internet. I held officers in the Air Force to a higher standard then low ranking enlisted people. I must be strange like that. > [@](#): > > It’s quite possible to reasonably believe someone is armed and ready to use the weapon without seeing it. Sure it is. So what? Concealed carry people are armed and ready to use the weapon and I can’t see it. Can I just shoot them because I’m afraid? ---
**Author:** ![UCBearcats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/77aa72/32.png) [@UCBearcats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UCBearcats)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2018, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12137 "2018-01-05T15:23:49Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Because they are cops. More authority = more responsibility = held to a higher standard. I also hold our elected officials to a higher standard than a random moron blog poster on the Internet. I held officers in the Air Force to a higher standard then low ranking enlisted people. I must be strange like that. > > Sure it is. So what? Concealed carry people are armed and ready to use the weapon and I can’t see it. Can I just shoot them because I’m afraid? Honestly as unfortunate as it would be, I would rather have one cop get shot/die if it means the standard becomes “actually see the weapon” as opposed to “I soiled my undies, so therefore I can shoot”. Too many people are being murdered that don’t have a weapon, are already restrained, or have their back turned from the cop. ---
**Author:** ![UCBearcats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/77aa72/32.png) [@UCBearcats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UCBearcats)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2018, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12138 "2018-01-05T15:51:55Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Wow! :eek: > > emphasis added Lighten up. It was a reply to another post, not something I originated. The mindset if them getting home alive compared to doing their best is bullshit. The argument that a cop’s life is more valuable than a regular citizen is also bullshit. 💩 Emphasis added!! ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2018, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12139 "2018-01-05T16:00:12Z")
> [@UCBearcats](#): > > Too many people are being murdered that don’t have a weapon, are already restrained, or have their back turned from the cop. That’s when they are most dangerous. ---
**Author:** ![UCBearcats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/77aa72/32.png) [@UCBearcats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UCBearcats)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2018, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12140 "2018-01-05T17:52:55Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > That’s when they are most dangerous. How so? Please elaborate, unless you are validating my statement that cops are more dangerous when they truly cannot be stopped. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2018, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12141 "2018-01-05T17:56:02Z")
> [@UCBearcats](#): > > How so? Please elaborate, unless you are validating my statement that cops are more dangerous when they truly cannot be stopped. sorry, forgot [sarcasm] tags. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=606) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=608)