# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 616
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2018, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12302 "2018-01-09T20:12:04Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > You have that backwards, as you would know if you’ve read my posts properly, or looked at the actual evidence elsewhere. …I’m expressing my opinion based on the evidence as I see it. I don’t have anything backwards. > [@](#): > > Irrelevant. You are defending criminals in general. Its not irrelevant at all. Was Martin, by the terms you are using in this thread, a criminal? How am I defending criminals “in general” in this thread? I’m being very specific. I’m talking about Zimmerman. You can’t extrapolate my opinion on one particular case to every single case. That’s just plain stupid. > [@](#): > > No, you do not. That is, again, a factually false statement. Do I know need to explain to you what “factually”, what “false”, and what “statement” mean? > [@](#): > > The evidence simply does not support the claim that Martin was defending himself. In my opinion, yes it does. > [@](#): > > There is, quite literally, zero evidence that Zimmerman was a threat to Martin. None whatsoever. We’ve gone from “fear” to “threat.” I love how you subtly shift your terminology every time you get called out. Zimmerman was obviously a threat to Martin. Zimmerman had a gun. Zimmerman was stalking Martin. Martin ended up dead. Zimmerman was the ultimate threat. Definition of threat: “a person or thing likely to cause damage or danger.” Zimmerman fits that definition to a T. > [@](#): > > And by now, you’ve had that shown to you often enough that it’s no longer a mistake, it’s a deliberate lie. I’ve provided a fucking dictionary definition of the word threat. I’m not fucking mistaken and I’m not fucking lying. > [@](#): > > No, it’s an outright lie. Zimmerman did not stalk Martin, even by an inappropriate colloquial usage. I’m using the actual dictionary definition. My use isn’t inappropriate. > [@](#): > > He _followed_ him, that is all. He stalked him. > [@](#): > > And you know what? _Fuck_ your uninformed opinion. ROFL! > [@](#): > > It is as valuable and informed as those who think Obama was born in Kenya, or that vaccines cause autism, or any other utterly unsupported lie. I wonder what goes on in your head. > [@](#): > > Zimmerman was the victim of an unprovoked attack, and you want him punished for that. Nope. > [@](#): > > You know how it’s easy to know that? Imagine the police had arrived a couple of minutes earlier, before Martin was killed. Then imagine all the evidence up to that point is the same. Martin would be charged, and convicted, of assault at minimum. If the police had arrived a few minutes earlier they would have interviewed Martin, found out that he was doing nothing wrong, and he would have been on his way. He would be alive. He wouldn’t have been charged, or convicted of assault. Because he didn’t do any fucking thing wrong. Of all the arguments you’ve put forward this is the one that shows there is something honest to goodness wrong with you. > [@](#): > > This isn’t some bizarre “Unsolved Mysteries” thing. We don’t know every single detail of what happened, but we know Martin attacked Zimmerman, and we have no evidence of any provocation. We don’t know this. We don’t know enough to be able to definitively declare that there was “no provocation.” > [@](#): > > You are both ignorant and dangerous. Dangerous? I can live with that. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2018, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12303 "2018-01-09T20:46:55Z")
> [@UCBearcats](#): > > Is this becoming personal? Did someone hurt you at some point? …bah its the pit. I’m calling him names. He’s fighting back. Its what we do here. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2018, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12304 "2018-01-09T21:04:15Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > {…} Martin may have been in reasonable fear that Zimmerman did not have good intentions, but so what? He had a phone on him, and could easily have called the police. _That_ is the reasonable response, not to bash his head into the ground. {…} Zimmerman may have been in reasonable fear that Martin did not have good intentions, but so what? He had a phone on him, and could easily have called the police. _That_ is the reasonable response, not to follow him around and confront him. CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2018, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12305 "2018-01-09T21:09:26Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Zimmerman may have been in reasonable fear that Martin did not have good intentions, but so what? He had a phone on him, and could easily have called the police. _That_ is the reasonable response, not to follow him around and confront him. > > CMC fnord! When seconds matter, the police are only minutes away. Isn’t that what I hear all the time from people promoting the use of self defense? Hey, you know who did call the police? Zimmerman. He then ignored their instructions, then stalked, confronted, and ultimately killed Martin before they ever showed up. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2018, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12306 "2018-01-09T21:16:51Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > When seconds matter, the police are only minutes away. Isn’t that what I hear all the time from people promoting the use of self defense? > > Hey, you know who did call the police? Zimmerman. He then ignored their instructions, then stalked, confronted, and ultimately killed Martin before they ever showed up. Yup, but somehow that’s OK . . . for some. Given someone’s mention of the reasonable fear women have of being raped, I wonder what that someone’s opinion of this would have been/be if it was Trayvona Martin? CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2018, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12307 "2018-01-09T21:17:27Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Zimmerman may have been in reasonable fear that Martin did not have good intentions, but so what? He had a phone on him, and could easily have called the police. _That_ is the reasonable response, not to follow him around and confront him. Zimmerman did call the police. Martin attacked him while Zimmerman was looking for a house number, or a street sign, so he could give an exact location where the police should meet him. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > How am I defending criminals “in general” in this thread? I’m being very specific. I’m talking about Zimmerman. Zimmerman isn’t a criminal. > [@](#): > > Zimmerman was obviously a threat to Martin. Zimmerman had a gun. Zimmerman was stalking Martin. Martin ended up dead. Zimmerman was the ultimate threat. > > Definition of threat: “a person or thing likely to cause damage or danger.” > > Zimmerman fits that definition to a T. How did Martin know that Zimmerman had a gun? If Martin felt threatened, why did he double back from his father’s condo and seek out Zimmerman and attack him? > [@](#): > > If the police had arrived a few minutes earlier they would have interviewed Martin, found out that he was doing nothing wrong, and he would have been on his way. He would be alive. He wouldn’t have been charged, or convicted of assault. Because he didn’t do any fucking thing wrong. Well, yes - if the police had arrived a few minutes before Martin attacked Zimmerman, then Martin would have done nothing wrong. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2018, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12308 "2018-01-09T21:18:56Z")
An armed white thug in a truck stalked a unarmed innocent black person in a white neighbourhood in a region with centuries of abuse of blacks, who fled the stalker out of fear. A physical conflict ensued and the black person was shot to death by the white thug. Those are the facts upon which the SDMB’s very own animated pieces of shit use to support racist victim blaming. The thing about animated shit is that if you step on it with facts and reason, all you end up with is shit sticking to your shoe, for nothing will change a piece of shit’s mind because shit does not have a mind. All shit it has is itself: shit. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2018, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12309 "2018-01-09T21:48:31Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Zimmerman isn’t a criminal. …your preaching to the choir. I never claimed he was. > [@](#): > > How did Martin know that Zimmerman had a gun? How do we know if he did or didn’t know? > [@](#): > > If Martin felt threatened, why did he double back from his father’s condo and seek out Zimmerman and attack him? Threatened people sometimes behave in unpredictable ways. I don’t think he “seeked out” Zimmerman to attack him. I think there was a confrontation and things escalated. > [@](#): > > Well, yes - if the police had arrived a few minutes before Martin attacked Zimmerman, then Martin would have done nothing wrong. Yes: if the police had arrived earlier Martin would have been alive. Yes: if the police had arrived earlier there would have been no confrontation. This is undisputed, thanks again for pointing that out. If you could let Steophan know this for us: that would be grand. He might take it better coming from a Zimmerman advocate than an “ignorant and dangerous” person like me. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2018, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12310 "2018-01-09T21:52:24Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Zimmerman did call the police. Martin attacked him while Zimmerman was looking for a house number, or a street sign, so he could give an exact location where the police should meet him. {…} Yes, I know, is that all we can glean from Zimmerman’s narrative about his movements? I mean I can certainly understand Zimmerman’s confusion given the sheer number of streets there are in The Retreat at Twin Lakes! I mean just how reasonable is it to expect anyone to remember the name of the street they have to turn on to enter the apartment complex they live in?!? CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2018, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12311 "2018-01-09T22:03:02Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Zimmerman did call the police. Martin attacked him while Zimmerman was looking for a house number, or a street sign, so he could give an exact location where the police should meet him. Strange that Zimmerman was looking for house numbers and street signs on the sidewalk behind the building, rather than on the street, where such things would have been visible. > [@](#): > > Zimmerman isn’t a criminal.How did Martin know that Zimmerman had a gun? REally seems a reasonable assumption in this day. Gun proponents are always trying to get more and more people to have a gun, assuming that someone who is following you at night, behind houses has a gun is not unreasonable. And that is assuming that Zimmerman was keeping it holstered the whole time, as opposed to, as one would do it one were following someone who think is dangerous, unholster it and have it at the ready. > [@](#): > > If Martin felt threatened, why did he double back from his father’s condo and seek out Zimmerman and attack him? If someone is stalking you, how do you respond to that? If you lead them to your home, then you put the people in your home in danger. He was defending his family and his home from this armed stranger that was acting suspiciously, walking behind houses and following him. > [@](#): > > Well, yes - if the police had arrived a few minutes before Martin attacked Zimmerman, then Martin would have done nothing wrong. > > Regards, > Shodan And if Martin had been the only one standing at the end of the confrontation, and it was only his story to tell, he would have done nothing wrong either. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2018, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12312 "2018-01-09T22:51:01Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Zimmerman isn’t a criminal. He hasn’t been convicted, but he’s a criminal. He’s beaten up women, threatened people, been a total douchebag. Oh, and he got away with killing a young kid who wasn’t bothering him. Would you want to hang out with the guy?:dubious: ---
**Author:** ![SaneBill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e68b1a/32.png) [@SaneBill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SaneBill)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2018, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12313 "2018-01-09T22:56:38Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > How did Martin know that Zimmerman had a gun? Would you have started to follow a black thug unarmed? Heck, I would’ve held it in my hand all the time. The hammer cocked. Maybe I would’ve accidentally shot somebody who suddenly appeared, but… uh, never mind. > [@](#): > > If Martin felt threatened, why did he double back from his father’s condo and seek out Zimmerman and attack him? Maybe he didn’t want to lead an armed thug there ? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2018, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12314 "2018-01-09T23:08:45Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > In my opinion, yes it does. Your opinion doesn’t matter when it’s contrary to facts. Really, nothing else you say matters when you keep making assertions that are contrary to the observed facts. Your opinion that Martin had reason to fear Zimmerman is based on your false belief that the lack of sufficient proof that he _wasn’t_ a threat somehow supports the view that he was. It doesn’t. For that, you would need positive evidence that he was, and that evidence simply doesn’t exist. Or at least, it doesn’t exist in the public record, and if you have it you should probably have revealed it before the trial. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2018, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12315 "2018-01-09T23:10:25Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > He hasn’t been convicted, but he’s a criminal. So that’s the level of “reason” we’ve reached, then… It’s no wonder people don’t understand what “reasonable” means when statements like this are made. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2018, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12316 "2018-01-09T23:15:00Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Hey, you know who did call the police? Zimmerman. He then ignored their instructions, then stalked, confronted, and ultimately killed Martin before they ever showed up. He received no instructions from the police, cannot have stalked him due to this being their first encounter, and what evidence there is suggests that the confrontation was started by Martin. Apart from that, you’re spot on… Do you really not understand how fucking sick it is to twist the facts to try to claim that the victim of a violent, unprovoked attack is a murderer? I truly can’t understand the motivation here, when the emotion and misleading media reports are stripped away it’s about as clear as case of self defence as is possible to get. I can at least understand the motivation of the people questioning police shootings, even when they reach the wrong conclusions. But here, it’s just unfathomable. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2018, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12317 "2018-01-09T23:17:20Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Do you really not understand how fucking sick it is to twist the facts to try to claim that the victim of a violent, unprovoked attack is a murderer? I truly can’t understand the motivation here, when the emotion and misleading media reports are stripped away it’s about as clear as case of self defence as is possible to get. > > I can at least understand the motivation of the people questioning police shootings, even when they reach the wrong conclusions. But here, it’s just unfathomable. …says the guy who twisted the facts in the Jordan Davis shooting, called Davis (the unarmed black kid who was shot dead for, at worst, playing loud music) a “thug”, and said that his death didn’t upset him at all. What could possibly be the motivation for that, aside from being a repeated liar who serially lies and misrepresents the facts about cases in which young black men and boys are killed by white people? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2018, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12318 "2018-01-09T23:21:13Z")
Just for posterity (once again), here’s **Steophan** ’s “thug” post. An unarmed black kid was shot dead in an SUV, and here’s **Steophan** ’s response: > [@Can we please not do this again (Zimmerman media circus)?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-please-not-do-this-again-zimmerman-media-circus/681289/81): > > Yeah, I’m quite happy when sterling moral lawful gun owners get to shoot people that threaten them and get away with it. > > I’m also happy when nutjobs who shoot at a truck that’s driving away from them get locked up for decades. > > I can’t really be upset about what’s happened here. Thug got killed, nutjob got locked up, self defence laws are affirmed and Florida is slightly safer for everyone who lives there. “Thug got killed”. For playing loud music (if he even did that). And **Steophan** ’s absolutely fine with it. That really tells you what you need to know about **Steophan**. All his other lies since then are just icing on the cake. What could his motivation possibly be? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2018, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12319 "2018-01-09T23:24:04Z")
Oh grow up, for fuck’s sake. You lie about what you’ve said, you wilfully misunderstand what I’ve said despite repeated clarifications, and you follow me both here and on another board posting this bullshit. You’re pathetic. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2018, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12320 "2018-01-09T23:25:40Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Oh grow up, for fuck’s sake. You lie about what you’ve said, you wilfully misunderstand what I’ve said despite repeated clarifications, and you follow me both here and on another board posting this bullshit. You’re pathetic. LOL. You’ve never actually cited me saying what you claimed I did. You lied about me, and then you attacked my honesty simply for challenging you on your claim about me. If it was just a mistake, not a lie, you would have long ago retracted it. And you called Jordan Davis a thug, and said you weren’t upset he was killed. That’s a fact. I quoted it just above. Your words, for an unarmed black kid murdered for, at most, playing loud music. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2018, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12321 "2018-01-09T23:30:37Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Your opinion doesn’t matter when it’s contrary to facts. Really, nothing else you say matters when you keep making assertions that are contrary to the observed facts. > > Your opinion that Martin had reason to fear Zimmerman is based on your false belief that the lack of sufficient proof that he _wasn’t_ a threat somehow supports the view that he was. It doesn’t. For that, you would need positive evidence that he was, and that evidence simply doesn’t exist. Or at least, it doesn’t exist in the public record, and if you have it you should probably have revealed it before the trial. …its absolutely hilarious you’ve chosen to snip my exhaustive rebuttal down to a single quote and then dismissed the rest with a handwave, a strawman, and a complete misunderstanding of what I’ve said. Yes: based on the evidence produced at trial I hold the opinion that Martin was probably defending himself during the confrontation with Zimmerman. I don’t need to produce “positive evidence” in order to hold an opinion. You hold a different opinion. You are welcome to hold a different opinion. But understand that your point of view is simply an opinion based on your subjective view of the evidence, and not objective fact. You are doing exactly the same thing as I’m doing. The only difference is that you can’t admit it. Get off your fucking horse you plonker. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=615) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=617)