# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 618
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2018, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12342 "2018-01-10T14:55:07Z")
[Abbeville, Louisiana for this](https://apnews.com/86efdaef7e944cd5b19833f2d887de4a/Teacher-handcuffed,-jailed-after-questioning-pay-policies): > [@](#): > > A Louisiana teacher was removed from a school board meeting, forcibly handcuffed and jailed after questioning pay policies during a public comment period. The teacher’s union and the ACLU are investigating and two board members are complaining that the board treats women unfairly. > [@](#): > > A video posted by KATC-TV shows middle-school English teacher Deyshia Hargrave complying with a city marshal’s orders to leave Monday night’s Vermilion Parish School Board meeting in Abbeville, west of New Orleans. Next, she is seen on the hallway floor, screaming as the marshal handcuffs her behind her back. > > “Stop resisting,” the marshal says, hustling Hargrave toward an exit after lifting her to her feet. > > “I am not, you just pushed me to the floor,” Hargrave responds. > [@](#): > > It remains unclear why Hargrave was handcuffed. In a longer video posted on YouTube by a reporter for the Abbeville Meridional, the officer is heard telling Hargrave outside the building that he had given her “many lawful orders to leave.” > > “And that’s exactly what I was doing,” Hargrave insists. Yet again, complying with an officer leads to brutality. (If both resisting and complying leads to police committing violence, why should anyone do anything other than avoid the police?) Note that there is more controversy here than just police brutality; it sounds like Abbeville has a lot of problems: > [@](#): > > Women have several times been told to leave meetings, while men who speak out have not been removed, board member Laura LeBeouf told The Associated Press in a telephone interview on Tuesday. > > “When she realized she had to get out, she picked up her purse and walked out,” LeBeouf said. “Women in this parish are not getting the same treatment.” > > The board’s other woman member expressed similar sentiments. > > “No reason for anyone to be treated this way. So far in 3 years, only women have been removed from board room meetings,” Sara Duplechain wrote in an emailed response to AP’s questions. [Video here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ix9lIwa9h1E). ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2018, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12343 "2018-01-10T16:31:40Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Says the opinion of **Shodan** , and the opinion of **Shodan** is final! Only **Shodan’s** opinion (or those who agree with him) on what the evidence suggests is legitimate; any other opinions on what the evidence suggests are wrong. > > All hail **Shodan**! At last, you are getting the idea. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2018, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12344 "2018-01-10T16:47:20Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …post #12217 #12245#12251 #12258#12270 > > You are a fucking liar. I’ve laid out exactly what evidence, in my humble opinion, supports my claim. Yes, but your opinion doesn’t align with reality or reason. Try again, without the chains of unsupported inferences. Your entire argument lies on the claim that, because Martin used violence on Zimmerman, he _must_ have had a good reason. Despite there being no evidence of a _good_ reason. It’s possible you started this without understanding what you were doing, and genuinely thought your reasoning was sound. But there’s no way you can still believe that now, you’ve been shown repeatedly, by more than one person, what your mistakes are. So either you are the liar, or you are incapable of reason. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2018, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12345 "2018-01-10T16:53:33Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > _And of course, subsequent events in the life of this asshole wannabe have also confirmed it._ Really? What crimes has he been convicted of? He’s been _accused_ of some but there’s been no charges pressed, let alone convictions. > [@](#): > > _ **But the verdict does not refute Zimmerman’s guilt.** _ It literally, factually does. The verdict was “not guilty”. That, by both legal definition and the ordinary definition of words, directly refutes the claim that he’s guilty. > [@](#): > > Your stupidity is breath-taking. We might find you amusing if your opinions weren’t so disgusting and inhumane. I’m not the one wanting to lock innocent people up for defending themselves. I’m not the one victim-blaming. My views are _fundamentally_ humane, in that they value humanity and human life, rather than believing that someone should just roll over and take it when threatened or attacked. If you don’t support Zimmerman, you are supporting the fundamentally discredited moral view that might makes right. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2018, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12346 "2018-01-10T16:54:33Z")
> [@Ike\_Witt](#): > > We have read your posts. Nobody here agrees with you, in case you have not noticed. Do you have some people on ignore? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2018, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12347 "2018-01-10T16:58:30Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > I’m not the one wanting to lock innocent people up for defending themselves. I’m not the one victim-blaming. My views are _fundamentally_ humane, in that they value humanity and human life, rather than believing that someone should just roll over and take it when threatened or attacked. If you don’t support Zimmerman, you are supporting the fundamentally discredited moral view that might makes right. Shouldn’t you be adding “except if they are cops” to the end of all of these sentences? Because apparently, the divine being that gave you the right to defend yourself didn’t mean for that to apply against people that society has labeled “The Police” I guess might DOES make right. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2018, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12348 "2018-01-10T17:01:18Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > I’m not the one victim-blaming. You blamed Jordan Davis, unarmed black kid, for his own death. And you called him a thug. Your words. So another **Steophan** lie. > [@](#): > > My views are _fundamentally_ humane, in that they value humanity and human life, rather than believing that someone should just roll over and take it when threatened or attacked. Where was your humanity when it came to Jordan Davis? Why was his life so worthless to you that you had no problem at all that it was taken? ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2018, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12349 "2018-01-10T17:22:59Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Do you have some people on ignore? Not enough it seems. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2018, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12350 "2018-01-10T17:28:10Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > Given Zimmerman’s **past documented history** , it would be **very reasonable** to assume that **ONCE AGAIN** , he was the aggressor, the instigator. Each and every time, it was also documented that he himself played the “victim card”. > > I look forward to the day when I read in the news that someone finally finished him off. And got away with it. He’s the thug. He needs to be removed. I certainly would not actually wish for the death of another human being, even one as reprehensible as this one. Though, being human, I must admit that if I were to hear that he was shot and killed in self defense, I would have a trouble resisting a smirk and finding my belief in karma going up a notch. ---
**Author:** ![SaneBill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e68b1a/32.png) [@SaneBill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SaneBill)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2018, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12351 "2018-01-10T17:31:02Z")
Steophan, since you apparently know everything about this case I ask you few questions. How do we know that those scratches on Martin’s knuckles came from him hitting Zimmerman ? And not Zimmerman scratching dead Martin’s knuckles on the ground to frame him as an attacker ? How do we know that Zimmerman’s wounds were caused by Martin ? And not by himself to frame Martin as an attacker ? If you answer “because Zimmerman told so”, you’re an idiot. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2018, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12352 "2018-01-10T17:33:45Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > [Abbeville, Louisiana for this](https://apnews.com/86efdaef7e944cd5b19833f2d887de4a/Teacher-handcuffed,-jailed-after-questioning-pay-policies):Yet again, complying with an officer leads to brutality. (If both resisting and complying leads to police committing violence, why should anyone do anything other than avoid the police?) > > Note that there is more controversy here than just police brutality; it sounds like Abbeville has a lot of problems:[Video here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ix9lIwa9h1E). And the whole thing was about the fact that the male superintendent was getting a 5 figure raise, while the nearly all female faculty had not had one in years. She was not out of line, she was not yelling or screaming, she was just saying things that those in charge did not wish to be said. So, they sicked their “School Marshall”, which I was unclear as to whether this is actually a LEO or a rent-a-cop (or if there is a difference in Abbeville) on her to shut her up and make an example for any other women that may get the bright idea to express their views in public. ---
**Author:** ![Crazy\_Canuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazy_canuck/32/5282_2.png) [@Crazy\_Canuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazy_Canuck)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2018, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12353 "2018-01-10T17:55:50Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > My views are _fundamentally_ humane, in that they value humanity and human life, rather than believing that someone should just roll over and take it when threatened or attacked. Your complete and utter hypocrisy never fails to amaze me. You have repeatedly and consistently throughout this entire thread insisted that someone who is attacked or threatened by the police should just roll over and take it and that defending yourself from police aggression is an inherently immoral act. So you either need to admit that you don’t consider the victims of police violence human, or admit that you don’t really value human life as much as you claim. Which is it? > [@Ike\_Witt](#): > > We have read your posts. Nobody here agrees with you, in case you have not noticed. Seconded. While I don’t agree with **iiandyiiii** on many issues, he is factually correct here, and no matter how many times you try and pull a donald and scream “fake news” that fact that you are a lying sack of shit remains true. It’s a public service to announce that for anyone who jumps in without having read the previous 246 pages of this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2018, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12354 "2018-01-10T17:57:05Z")
> [@SaneBill](#): > > Steophan, > since you apparently know everything about this case I ask you few questions. > > How do we know that those scratches on Martin’s knuckles came from him hitting Zimmerman ? And not Zimmerman scratching dead Martin’s knuckles on the ground to frame him as an attacker ? > How do we know that Zimmerman’s wounds were caused by Martin ? And not by himself to frame Martin as an attacker ? The first police officer arrived on the scene about 45 seconds after the gunshot that killed Martin was recorded on the 911 line. ([Cite](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin).) So, in forty-five seconds, Zimmerman [ul][li]banged Martin’s knuckles on the ground[_]hit himself in the face hard enough to break his nose and cause multiple contusions [_]banged his own head on the ground hard enough to cause multiple lacerations [_]put grass stains and moisture on the back of his own jacket [_]put grass stains and moisture on Martin’s knees, and [\*]convinced an eye witness to report that he saw Martin on top of Zimmerman and not vice versa.[/ul]If you believe that this is what happened, it does not seem to me that **Steophan** is the idiot.[/li] Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![SaneBill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e68b1a/32.png) [@SaneBill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SaneBill)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2018, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12355 "2018-01-10T18:47:16Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > If you believe that this is what happened, it does not seem to me that **Steophan** is the idiot. Fair enough, didn’t know these things. Now I probably know, although about ( whatever that means ) 45 seconds is pretty long time. ( Edit: Steophan is still an idiot ) ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2018, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12356 "2018-01-10T18:52:56Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I certainly would not actually wish for the death of another human being, even one as reprehensible as this one. > > Though, being human, I must admit that if I were to hear that he was shot and killed in self defense, I would have a trouble resisting a smirk and finding my belief in karma going up a notch. I have to admit, I do have a vindictive streak in me, when it comes to some things. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2018, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12357 "2018-01-10T23:08:22Z")
> [@SaneBill](#): > > Steophan, > since you apparently know everything about this case I ask you few questions. > > How do we know that those scratches on Martin’s knuckles came from him hitting Zimmerman ? And not Zimmerman scratching dead Martin’s knuckles on the ground to frame him as an attacker ? > How do we know that Zimmerman’s wounds were caused by Martin ? And not by himself to frame Martin as an attacker ? > > If you answer “because Zimmerman told so”, you’re an idiot. You fundamentally misunderstand the required burden of proof here. We don’t _know_ those things, but don’t need to. For you to call Zimmerman a murderer, you would need to _know_, not merely speculate without evidence that Zimmerman caused those injuries, not Martin. And, whether you like it or not, Zimmerman’s statements are evidence. It’s entirely reasonable not to take them as conclusive, but without evidence to actually refute them all you can do is ignore them entirely and say you don’t know what happened. The totality of the evidence makes it reasonable to think Zimmerman was defending himself. Therefore, not guilty. Therefore, he maintains his presumed innocence. As to what I actually believe, I think it’s absurd to think it’s likely Zimmerman caused those injuries himself. The police arrived an extremely short time after Martin was shot, and I don’t think it’s reasonable to think Zimmerman would have the presence of mind to injure both himself and Martin in consistent fashions, without leaving any trace of having done so. It’s not impossible it happened, but we don’t (or shouldn’t) call people murderers simply because it’s not theoretically impossible that they are. I’d rank your scenario as about as likely as Martin actually having been killed be some as yet unknown third party. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2018, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12358 "2018-01-10T23:13:09Z")
> [@Crazy\_Canuck](#): > > Your complete and utter hypocrisy never fails to amaze me. You have repeatedly and consistently throughout this entire thread insisted that someone who is attacked or threatened by the police should just roll over and take it and that defending yourself from police aggression is an inherently immoral act. No, I’ve repeatedly and consistently said that a cop using force to do their job is _not_ an attack or a threat, and that you have a legal and moral duty to comply with them. Not to ignore their instructions, reach for a gun when they tell you to freeze, fight back when they restrain you, or anything else. I’ve also said that, even if a cop is abusing their authority, it is _fucking stupid_ to resist them, as you will, in fact, be shot. Better to comply, sue, and live the rest of your life in luxury from the millions you get. Assuming, of course they are actually abusing their authority, not that you just think you know better than them. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2018, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12359 "2018-01-10T23:20:07Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > You blamed Jordan Davis, unarmed black kid, for his own death. And you called him a thug. Your words. So another **Steophan** lie. > > Where was your humanity when it came to Jordan Davis? Why was his life so worthless to you that you had no problem at all that it was taken? Explained repeatedly in the thread discussing that. Were I the liar you claim, I would be denying saying these things. I’m not, and anyone can look up my words, and I stand by them. If you don’t want to die, don’t threaten other people. That case ultimately got two dangerous people off the streets, so was far from the worst possible situation. I would hope that laws are changed soon so that someone else threatened the way Dunn was won’t end convicted of murder, but that the conviction for attempting to murder people who weren’t a threat would stand. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2018, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12360 "2018-01-10T23:32:57Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Explained repeatedly in the thread discussing that. > > Were I the liar you claim, I would be denying saying these things. I’m not, and anyone can look up my words, and I stand by them. > > If you don’t want to die, don’t threaten other people. That case ultimately got two dangerous people off the streets, so was far from the worst possible situation. I would hope that laws are changed soon so that someone else threatened the way Dunn was won’t end convicted of murder, but that the conviction for attempting to murder people who weren’t a threat would stand. The evidence Davis didn’t threaten Dunn is a lot stronger than the evidence he did (which consists solely of the testimony of Dunn). Dunn lied repeatedly on other things; no idea why you’d trust his testimony on a threat when there was no other evidence for it – even his girlfriend said that he didn’t mention any threat with a (nonexistent) shotgun, contrary to the killer’s testimony. So you’re happy to take the word of a lying killer over the words of the killer’s girlfriend, the victim’s friends, and the complete lack of evidence (most notably the lack of a weapon to threaten with) for the lying killer’s testimony. Why? Even if that’s what you suspect, how could you be so sure that you’re willing to call the dead kid a thug, and have no problem that he’s dead? Why would you be so inhumane, and so callous? Your lies about me are shitty and disgusting, but nothing compared to these lies about Davis. It’s not reasonable to believe that Davis threatened Dunn – certainly not reasonable to be confident to the point to be willing to condemn Davis as “dangerous”. Yes, not only did you call a dead black kid a thug, now you’re calling him “dangerous”, based on nothing more than the testimony of a proven liar – not just a liar, but someone who shoots wildly at kids for no good reason whatsoever. Disgusting and inhumane. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2018, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12361 "2018-01-11T00:12:53Z")
Accusing the victims of serious threats and assaults of murder is disgusting. I actually don’t believe anyone here would disagree with that statement on its own, but for some reason there’s a blindness to the fact that certain people are victims. Maybe Dunn or Zimmerman should have worn longer skirts. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=617) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=619)