# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 623
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2018, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12442 "2018-01-15T03:12:57Z")
“Incontrovertible proof”? What fucking universe do you find that in? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2018, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12443 "2018-01-15T03:15:23Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > Your respect for the rule of law goes right out the window when it results in a white man being convicted for the murder of a black kid, doesn’t it? Weird how opposite it is from your respect for the law when it results in a white man being found not guilty for the murder of a black kid. Boy, I wonder why that is. > > You’re probably too stupid to understand sarcasm, so I’ll spell it out–you’re a dirty racist. It’s nothing to do with race, it’s to do with the two situations not being opposite. The default is innocence, is acquittal. That’s the presumption, and it should be an extremely high bar to overcome it. I’m not against the rule of law, obviously. I’m not saying Dunn should be broken out of jail. I’m saying that either the result of the trial or the law are wrong, and should be changed by following the appropriate, legal, procedures, to ensure that anyone who claims to have killed in self defence is correctly treated as the victim of a serious crime, just like anyone else who claims to be a victim. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2018, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12444 "2018-01-15T03:17:27Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Perhaps you could respond to what I actually posted, rather than whatever this is? You seem rather confused, claiming that his fiance saying there was no threat proves anything, despite her not being there at the time of the shooting. > > You clearly haven’t actually looked into what happened, what the evidence actually is. You should probably do that before you say more stupid things like that. > > Let’s just test this. How many people were in each car at the time of the shooting? If you look it up, was it what you thought? His girlfriend was a witness to what he said in the aftermath, and he didn’t say anything about a threat to her. Nothing about a gun. The other witnesses all saw no gun, no threat, and no dangerous actions at all. Dunn made up the bullshit about the threat, and about the gun, and was too dumb to think of it early enough to tell his girlfriend the same story in the aftermath of the incident. Those are the facts. The jury understood these facts, and understood that the evidence that Dunn’s story was false was beyond a reasonable doubt. The jury was right, and you are wrong. It’s a fact that Dunn is a convicted murderer. It’s a fact that the jury found his story false beyond a reasonable doubt. These are the facts – Dunn is a convicted murderer, and the jury was convinced he was a liar beyond a reasonable doubt. That you are not doesn’t really tell us anything, because you’re a liar and a crazy idiot. And you’re still a liar about me and many other things. And you called the dead kid a “thug”, and were fine with his death, despite the fact that you couldn’t possibly be certain beyond a reasonable doubt that Dunn’s story is true. So you’re willing to call him a thug and be fine with his death just on the possibility that Dunn wasn’t lying (even though the jury was convinced he was due to all the other evidence contradicting his story). ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2018, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12445 "2018-01-15T03:18:10Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > “Incontrovertible proof”? What fucking universe do you find that in? Hopefully this one, otherwise there’s a lot of convictions that will need to be overturned as a matter of urgency. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2018, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12446 "2018-01-15T03:22:26Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > It’s nothing to do with race, it’s to do with the two situations not being opposite. The default is innocence, is acquittal. That’s the presumption, and it should be an extremely high bar to overcome it. > > I’m not against the rule of law, obviously. I’m not saying Dunn should be broken out of jail. I’m saying that either the result of the trial or the law are wrong, and should be changed by following the appropriate, legal, procedures, to ensure that anyone who claims to have killed in self defence is correctly treated as the victim of a serious crime, just like anyone else who claims to be a victim. Then why did you call Davis a “thug”, and why were you fine with his death, if all you have is some doubt that Dunn is guilty? That’s the racist part – you didn’t just have some doubt that Dunn might be guilty… you were certain enough that his story is true, and all the other testimony (from multiple witnesses who just so happened to be black) and evidence is wrong, to call the dead kid a “thug” and be fine with his death. That’s not reasonable, that’s inhumane, and that’s racist. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2018, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12447 "2018-01-15T03:23:27Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > His girlfriend was a witness to what he said in the aftermath, and he didn’t say anything about a threat to her. Nothing about a gun. The other witnesses all saw no gun, no threat, and no dangerous actions at all. Dunn made up the bullshit about the threat, and about the gun, and was too dumb to think of it early enough to tell his girlfriend the same story in the aftermath of the incident. > > Those are the facts. The jury understood these facts, and understood that Dunn’s story was not reasonable, and the evidence that his story was false was beyond a reasonable doubt. > > The jury was right, and you are wrong. It’s a fact that Dunn is a convicted murderer. It’s a fact that the jury found his story false beyond a reasonable doubt. These are the facts – Dunn is a convicted murderer. > > And you’re still a liar about me and many other things. How many are “all” those other witnesses? Must be several at least, right? And there was definitely nothing going on that could have possibly prevented them from hearing a threat, no deafening music or anything. You don’t have a fucking clue what “proof” means, or where the burden of proof lies, if you think it matters the slightest amount whether there was actually a gun. All that needs to be the case is that it’s possible a reasonable person in Dunn’s position could have believed Davis had a gun, and was about to use it. Explain why that is impossible. Hopefully you can tell us what Davis actually said, as that’s about the only way you could do that. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2018, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12448 "2018-01-15T03:29:10Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > How many are “all” those other witnesses? Must be several at least, right? All of this is publicly available (and easily found) knowledge. If you’re really not sure about all these facts, I suggest you start here: > **[Murder of Jordan Davis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Jordan_Davis)** > > On November 23, 2012, Jordan Davis, a black 17-year-old high-school student, was murdered at a Gate Petroleum gas station in Jacksonville, Florida, by Michael David Dunn, a white 45-year-old software developer, following an argument over loud music played by Davis and his three friends, in what was believed to be a racially motivated shooting. > Dunn was convicted on three counts of attempted second-degree murder for firing at three other teenagers who were with Davis and one count of firing int... > [@](#): > > And there was definitely nothing going on that could have possibly prevented them from hearing a threat, no deafening music or anything. > > You don’t have a fucking clue what “proof” means, or where the burden of proof lies, if you think it matters the slightest amount whether there was actually a gun. All that needs to be the case is that it’s possible a reasonable person in Dunn’s position could have believed Davis had a gun, and was about to use it. Explain why that is impossible. Hopefully you can tell us what Davis actually said, as that’s about the only way you could do that. LOL. Thankfully, that the jury wasn’t full of crazy idiots like you, but reasonable people who saw through Dunn’s lies and convicted him. Beyond a reasonable doubt, based on all the evidence, it’s not possible a reasonable person in Dunn’s position could have believed Davis had a gun and was about to use it. That’s what the jury found, and that’s what is clear to me, and everyone in this thread who isn’t a crazy idiot like you. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2018, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12449 "2018-01-15T03:30:19Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Then why did you call Davis a “thug”, and why were you fine with his death, if all you have is some doubt that Dunn is guilty? That’s the racist part – you didn’t just have some doubt that Dunn might be guilty… you were certain enough that his story is true, and all the other testimony (from multiple witnesses who just so happened to be black) and evidence is wrong, to call the dead kid a “thug” and be fine with his death. > > That’s not reasonable, that’s inhumane, and that’s racist. Because he was a thug, based on his own friends’ testimony. Blast gangsta rap out of a car loud enough to shake nearby cars? You’re probably a thug, but yeah, I’ll give the benefit of the doubt, some people when informed of their antisocial behaviour will turn the music down. Others, like Davis, will insist it’s turned back up again, and start being mire antisocial by yelling at the guy telling them to turn it down. Antisocial, aggressive, thuggish scumbag. And the sort of person I’ve described? I’ve seen plenty of them about, and they’re mostly white. And I wouldn’t fucking cry for them if they acted thuggishly to the wrong person. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2018, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12450 "2018-01-15T03:35:06Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Because he was a thug, based on his own friends’ testimony. > > Blast gangsta rap out of a car loud enough to shake nearby cars? You’re probably a thug, but yeah, I’ll give the benefit of the doubt, some people when informed of their antisocial behaviour will turn the music down. Others, like Davis, will insist it’s turned back up again, and start being mire antisocial by yelling at the guy telling them to turn it down. Antisocial, aggressive, thuggish scumbag. > > And the sort of person I’ve described? I’ve seen plenty of them about, and they’re mostly white. And I wouldn’t fucking cry for them if they acted thuggishly to the wrong person. If occasionally annoying others is your criteria for being a “thug”, then you’re even more of a crazy idiot than I thought. I doubt I’ve ever met a teenager who didn’t sometimes annoy others to amuse their friends. Probably best if you stay in your basement. Then you’ll be safe, to lie about me and others in comfort, from all these scary teenagers who might occasionally annoy you. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2018, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12451 "2018-01-15T03:38:28Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > All of this is publicly available (and easily found) knowledge. If you’re really not sure about all these facts, I suggest you start here: > > [Murder of Jordan Davis - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Jordan_Davis) > > LOL. Thankfully, that the jury wasn’t full of crazy idiots like you, but reasonable people who saw through Dunn’s lies and convicted him. Beyond a reasonable doubt, based on all the evidence, it’s not possible a reasonable person in Dunn’s position could have believed Davis had a gun and was about to use it. That’s what the jury found, and that’s what is clear to me, and everyone in this thread who isn’t a crazy idiot like you. Yeah, I thought you wouldn’t answer a straight question. Also, I don’t for a moment think that, we’re you in Dunn’s position, you wouldn’t have been scared. Frankly, you’d probably have been to scared to tell them to turn the music down, most people would be. Whether that would amount to imminent fear of attack is another matter, but the idea that it’s inconceivable that he could have been that scared is ridiculous. People like Zimmerman, who was trying to prevent further burglaries in his neighbourhood, or Dunn, who wanted the selfish scumbags to stop their antisocial noise pollution, are the sort of people normal people want around them. And yet, when they get attacked for trying to improve their lives and those of the people around them (at least, those who aren’t antisocial scum), you say they’re criminals and unreasonable people. That’s because you are a very stupid person. Anyway, despite your seeming allergy to answering questions, I’m going to ask you another one. What do you think Davis was saying whilst shouting at Dunn? You seem certain for some reason that it was nothing aggressive or threatening, so I’d love to know what you think it was. Maybe he just started loved the music so much and wanted to share it… ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2018, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12452 "2018-01-15T03:41:58Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > If occasionally annoying others is your criteria for being a “thug”, then you’re even more of a crazy idiot than I thought. I doubt I’ve ever met a teenager who didn’t sometimes annoy others to amuse their friends. > > Probably best if you stay in your basement. Then you’ll be safe, to lie about me and others in comfort, from all these scary teenagers who might occasionally annoy you. Were that my criterion, you might have a point. But it isn’t, as reading the post you quoted would show. Try responding to what I actually write. ---
**Author:** ![AtomicDog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@AtomicDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AtomicDog)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2018, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12453 "2018-01-15T03:43:49Z")
The murder of Jordan Davis had nothing to do with a law enforcement encounter. It is obvious that Steophan has thoroughly hijacked this thread. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2018, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12454 "2018-01-15T03:46:57Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Also, I don’t for a moment think that, we’re you in Dunn’s position, you wouldn’t have been scared. Frankly, you’d probably have been to scared to tell them to turn the music down, most people would be. Whether that would amount to imminent fear of attack is another matter, but the idea that it’s inconceivable that he could have been that scared is ridiculous. I regularly pass by or sit near groups of black teenagers playing loud music. It’s not a big deal. I live in Washington DC, and ride public transportation every day – it probably happens to me 5 or 10 times a month. I’ve even, occasionally, had friendly interactions with such groups. They’re just kids being kids. > [@](#): > > People like Zimmerman, who was trying to prevent further burglaries in his neighbourhood, or Dunn, who wanted the selfish scumbags to stop their antisocial noise pollution, are the sort of people normal people want around them. And yet, when they get attacked for trying to improve their lives and those of the people around them (at least, those who aren’t antisocial scum), you say they’re criminals and unreasonable people. That’s because you are a very stupid person. You want Zimmerman, who’s had restraining orders granted against him due to domestic assault, and Dunn, who shot at several kids who posed no threat to him at all, near you? And you’re afraid of kids acting like kids? There’s something wrong with you, far worse than I previously thought. That’s not normal. These aren’t the fears and decision-making of a rational and reasonable person. I’m gonna step back, since I think you might need some help here. Why not see a therapist? You could talk through your fears, and maybe they’d settle down a bit. Best wishes to you. This probably won’t be an easy thing to admit to yourself, much less address and work through. Hopefully you can find a sympathetic ear with professional skills. Again, truly, best wishes. Probably best that we stop this kind of engagement and back-and-forth, since it’s just exacerbating these unreasonable fears you have. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2018, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12455 "2018-01-15T04:12:27Z")
You’re a patronising piece of shit. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2018, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12456 "2018-01-15T04:13:32Z")
> [@AtomicDog](#): > > The murder of Jordan Davis had nothing to do with a law enforcement encounter. It is obvious that Steophan has thoroughly hijacked this thread. You should maybe check who brought that issue up, it wasn’t me. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2018, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12457 "2018-01-15T04:16:01Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > You’re a patronising piece of shit. It’s okay, I can take it. Let your fear and anger out here. And then, hopefully one day, you can look into why you have these fears of kids acting like kids to begin with. Maybe you had a bad experience? Or you were bullied? I think a compassionate ear from a professional therapist might do you a lot of good. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2018, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12458 "2018-01-15T04:29:28Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > You’re a patronising piece of shit. He’s right, though. You have a severe mental illness that results in compulsive lying and dehumanizing of the “other”. Basically, you’re a sociopath. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2018, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12459 "2018-01-15T04:35:44Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > He’s right, though. You have a severe mental illness that results in compulsive lying and dehumanizing of the “other”. Basically, you’re a sociopath. Any chance you can show me your qualifications? I’m assuming you’re a psychiatrist, although I doubt you’re a good one as if so you wouldn’t give a certain diagnosis about someone you’ve never met. Really, you’re just making yourself look stupid, same as iiandyiiii. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2018, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12460 "2018-01-15T04:38:43Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Any chance you can show me your qualifications? I’m assuming you’re a psychiatrist, although I doubt you’re a good one as if so you wouldn’t give a certain diagnosis about someone you’ve never met. > > Really, you’re just making yourself look stupid, same as iiandyiiii. It’s okay. Those kids aren’t going to hurt you. You’re safe here. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2018, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12461 "2018-01-15T04:39:05Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It’s okay, I can take it. Let your fear and anger out here. And then, hopefully one day, you can look into why you have these fears of kids acting like kids to begin with. Maybe you had a bad experience? Or you were bullied? I think a compassionate ear from a professional therapist might do you a lot of good. Had I been bullied, based on your responses to this thread, you would want me to roll over and take it. Especially, for some reason, if the bully was black. Back on topic (or at least, to the previous off-topic you raised), “bully” is the perfect description of Davis and his ilk. Hopefully Dunn will get the therapy he needs to deal with what he went through. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=622) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=624)