# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 625
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2018, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12482 "2018-01-16T14:03:20Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Two false statements there. I’ve said Dunn belongs in jail for shooting at a fleeing car, and normal teens don’t actually act like feral scumbags, despite the stereotypes. To mimimise the actions of, for example, Martin or Davis as “arguing” is another example of your tenuous relationship with the truth. > > But yeah, I’m the crazy liar :smack: You did, in fact, say that Dunn is one of “the sort of people normal people want around them”: > [@Steophan](#): > > People like Zimmerman, who was trying to prevent further burglaries in his neighbourhood, or Dunn, who wanted the selfish scumbags to stop their antisocial noise pollution, are the sort of people normal people want around them. You may be contradicting previous statements of yours, but you really did say that about someone convicted of (in addition to murder) attempted murder for shooting at teens who posed no threat to him driving away. But it’s okay. And I apologize for earlier insults. I just didn’t see what was really going on with you, and I’m very sorry for it. It must be terrible, going through the constant terror caused by believing that completely normal, mundane, non-violent, and incredibly common teen behavior is that of “feral scumbags”. I have great sympathy for what you’re going through. I just think you need professional help, and it’s nothing to be ashamed of. There are great doctors out there who are very used to dealing with these sort of irrational fears. They might even help you meet some of these teens, who you’ll find are, for the most part, normal everyday teens, who like music and enjoy jockeying with adults and authority figures, but don’t actually behave violently in any way, or present a danger to anyone at all. They could also talk through why you think individuals who shoot at feeling teenagers are “the sort of people normal people want around them” – that’s not a rational or reasonable belief, and mental health professionals are used to dealing with that kind of extreme mix up of what is normal and acceptable and what is terrifying. Best wishes again. Please consider professional mental health assistance. It’s nothing to be ashamed of. I’ll again ask other posters to please treat **Steophan** with compassion. He needs help, not more insults, and I’m sorry for the past insults I lobbed his way. ---
**Author:** ![UCBearcats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/77aa72/32.png) [@UCBearcats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UCBearcats)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2018, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12483 "2018-01-16T15:17:47Z")
I’m sure we can find someone to fit him for a nice white coat with straps, a comfortable rubber room, and all the electro-shock therapy he needs. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2018, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12484 "2018-01-16T15:27:55Z")
_If_ mormal teenagers acted the way the ones we’ve been talking about in this thread did, I’d be justified in being scared of them. Indeed, there are some parts of the world where people are in fact scared to leave their houses because of the actions of “normal” teenagers, and the risk of being mugged or worse, as that’s “normal” behaviour, apparently. Fortunately, I don’t live there, so can go out without fear. If it really is normal for teens to make life unbearably unpleasant for other people, which I don’t believe for a second and isn’t my experience, that’s even more reason to need people around to insist they stop that behaviour, and to allow those people to defend themselves. Personally, I think it’s an abberation when these young men (and it’s almost always men) behave like that, and I also think most will grow out of it. But that doesn’t mean that the minority of antisocial jerks get to make other people’s lives worse before they do grow up. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2018, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12485 "2018-01-16T15:29:07Z")
> [@UCBearcats](#): > > I’m sure we can find someone to fit him for a nice white coat with straps, a comfortable rubber room, and all the electro-shock therapy he needs. I’ve had all the electro-shock therapy I need, thanks. It turned out to be none, according to the professionals I’ve seen about my health. ---
**Author:** ![UCBearcats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/77aa72/32.png) [@UCBearcats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UCBearcats)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2018, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12486 "2018-01-16T16:13:44Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > I’ve had all the electro-shock therapy I need, thanks. It turned out to be none, according to the professionals I’ve seen about my health. Maybe it’s time for a lobotomy. Don’t be afraid of the nice guys. They don’t have loud music and they aren’t “thugs”. They will help you. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2018, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12487 "2018-01-16T17:52:21Z")
Before I begin, just reassurance that **Steophan** you have nothing to fear, and most folks are decent and not going to hurt you, regardless of their race or age or the volume of music they play. > [@Steophan](#): > > _If_ mormal teenagers acted the way the ones we’ve been talking about in this thread did, I’d be justified in being scared of them. With very cautious and calm respect, Davis didn’t do anything dangerous or threatening at all. Playing loud music is incredibly common and is indeed “normal” for teenagers, as is arguing with someone who asks them to turn it down. > [@](#): > > Indeed, there are some parts of the world where people are in fact scared to leave their houses because of the actions of “normal” teenagers, and the risk of being mugged or worse, as that’s “normal” behaviour, apparently. Fortunately, I don’t live there, so can go out without fear. With calm respect again, it’s not rational to be afraid of teenagers playing loud music. I think you should see a mental health professional if you find the prospect of occasional loud music, or an occasional obnoxious remark from a teenager, frightening. Those are not reasonable things to fear. > [@](#): > > If it really is normal for teens to make life unbearably unpleasant for other people, which I don’t believe for a second and isn’t my experience, that’s even more reason to need people around to insist they stop that behaviour, and to allow those people to defend themselves. With calm respect, “unbearably unpleasant” is not a rational or reasonable descriptor for occasionally coming across loud music. It’s okay. Occasionally hearing loud music isn’t going to hurt you. It certainly doesn’t require self-defense. It’s not an attack, in any way at all. > [@](#): > > Personally, I think it’s an abberation when these young men (and it’s almost always men) behave like that, and I also think most will grow out of it. But that doesn’t mean that the minority of antisocial jerks get to make other people’s lives worse before they do grow up. I’m glad you recognize that “most will grow out of” the extremely common phase of occasionally being obnoxious in public. Hopefully you now might come to recognize that it was indeed a tragedy that Davis was killed after doing nothing violent or dangerous, and not something to feel fine about, or to find acceptable. And hopefully you will come to recognize that such occasionally obnoxious teenagers are far, far less dangerous than madmen like Dunn who shoot at children who pose no threat to them at all. Calm respect and love, and you’ll be safe from loud music and teenagers. They’re not going to hurt you. Thanks for reading. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2018, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12488 "2018-01-16T18:31:15Z")
There is word for teenagers who _don’t_ play loud music. That word is ‘nerd’. Syn=‘geek’ and ‘dweeb’. Normal teanagers play their music loud. They have been doing so since the invention of speakers. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2018, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12489 "2018-01-16T19:38:49Z")
> [@UCBearcats](#): > > Maybe it’s time for a lobotomy. I can get the same effect by reading some of the posts in this thread, or at least some much needed amusement. The hypocrisy on display is staggering. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2018, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12490 "2018-01-16T19:42:10Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > Normal teanagers play their music loud. They have been doing so since the invention of speakers. Yes, and they get told to turn it down, and they do so. Probably by people who played their music too loud decades ago. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2018, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12491 "2018-01-16T19:45:14Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Yes, and they get told to turn it down, and they do so. Probably by people who played their music too loud decades ago. And if they don’t turn it down, you can shoot them, amiright? ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2018, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12492 "2018-01-16T19:45:49Z")
Steophan, is there any level of collateral damage you’d consider too high to allow the absolute right to self-defense? We accept that there are limits to most right when the body count gets too high. Is there a “yelling fire in a crowded theater” situation in terms of the right to self-defense? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2018, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12493 "2018-01-16T20:05:42Z")
My guess is “If it could cause harm to a policeman” would be his bar. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2018, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12494 "2018-01-16T20:18:30Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > I can get the same effect by reading some of the posts in this thread Yeah, your posts are awful. ---
**Author:** ![Crazy\_Canuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazy_canuck/32/5282_2.png) [@Crazy\_Canuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazy_Canuck)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2018, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12495 "2018-01-16T20:19:48Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > The hypocrisy on display is staggering. Finally, something we agree on. Does this mean you are going to stop posting it and go away? ---
**Author:** ![SaneBill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e68b1a/32.png) [@SaneBill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SaneBill)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2018, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12496 "2018-01-16T21:18:17Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > Steophan, is there any level of collateral damage you’d consider too high to allow the absolute right to self-defense? If there is, it is more than 12 %, at least if it’s by cops ( which is one out of eight ). > [@Steophan](#): > > Although if you read the article someone helpfully posted earlier, you’ll find that the vast majority of police killings are of armed people - something like 88% if I remember rightly. That does not suggest a systemic problem where the police are wantonly or fearfully killing vast amounts of innocent, unarmed people. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2018, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12497 "2018-01-16T23:31:27Z")
> [@Crazy\_Canuck](#): > > Finally, something we agree on. Does this mean you are going to stop posting it and go away? One can only hope, because “packing heat” and shooting people dead is the most reasonable way to deal with loud music. Always. He sure likes the idea of “the right people” getting away with murder. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2018, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12498 "2018-01-17T01:05:23Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > Steophan, is there any level of collateral damage you’d consider too high to allow the absolute right to self-defense? We accept that there are limits to most right when the body count gets too high. Is there a “yelling fire in a crowded theater” situation in terms of the right to self-defense? Killing ten people because one of them is threatening you isn’t acceptable, it’s pretty much due to this principle that I agree that Dunn was rightly convicted for attempted murder. If you’re asking if we should limit the right to self defence because of a belief that too many people are abusing it by falsely claiming it, then no. It’s not the equivalent to shouting “fire”, it’s saying we should be fine with convicting some victims of violent crime of murder, because some other people are liars. I think the standards for conviction of any crime should be extremely high, that “beyond reasonable doubt” should always be strictly applied, and the more serious the punishment would be, the more important this is. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2018, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12499 "2018-01-17T01:11:24Z")
> [@Crazy\_Canuck](#): > > Finally, something we agree on. Does this mean you are going to stop posting it and go away? Just because you don’t like what I say doesn’t make it hypocritical. People who claim to value truth and the rights of minorities spreading lies and mocking someone’s mental health issues is hypocritical, however. I mean, they have every right to do it, this is a forum dedicated to being a dick to people. But that doesn’t make it less pathetic. And for what it’s worth, I’m well aware that my white privilege and so forth means I’m a lot more comfortable even with my issues than a lot of other, healthy, people are due to various issues, I’m not looking for sympathy or claiming I’m seriously oppressed or anything like that. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2018, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12500 "2018-01-17T05:46:33Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Although if you read the article someone helpfully posted earlier, you’ll find that the vast majority of police killings are of armed people - something like 88% if I remember rightly. That does not suggest a systemic problem where the police are wantonly or fearfully killing vast amounts of innocent, unarmed people. Philando Castile was armed — does that mean he was _not_ an innocent man wantonly or fearfully killed? How about the toddler accidentally killed by a cowardly cop aiming for a barking dog? In police stats, I suppose the family dog meant that toddler was “armed”? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2018, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12501 "2018-01-17T06:16:10Z")
Eric Garner was not shot to death. The woman in Texas who was detained _for no fucking reason_ died in a jail cell. Freddy Gray was given the old shake-and-bake. There was the young man who died in jail because they would not give him medication. These and others were neither armed nor shot, but they died from mistreatment by the police. And this is only what we see. And again and again, we see the police fabricating a story that makes them look justified. How deep does this go? Are we seeing basically all there is? We have solid evidence that the police routinely lie about what happened. For them, the idea of “innocent until proven guilty” seems a tad nonsensical when one sees the height and opacity of the blue wall. There is something dreadfully wrong with LE in the US, and it may not be fixable. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=624) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=626)