# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 627
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2018, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12522 "2018-01-17T16:43:51Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > 735 out of 987 killings (accding to WaPo) is 74% - the 88% was for people with mental health probs. So that means 252 UNARMED civilians were killed by cops in 2017. A number far too large, imho, no matter what standard you use. And some of those who were armed were not posing a significant threat. 252 unarmed civilians dead and all we can come up with are a small handful of cases where the shooting was questionable. Any unjustified killings is too many but does 252 unarmed civilian deaths necessarily indicate that the number is far too large? Unarmed doesn’t mean, not a threat. Many unarmed civilians are killed while assaulting a police officer. This may not seem common but its mostly because no one covers those cases because its so clear that the shooting was justified. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2018, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12523 "2018-01-17T16:45:25Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Whites can not only carry guns, they can dare the police to do something about it. I sure would like to see a cite on that. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2018, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12524 "2018-01-17T16:45:57Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Unarmed doesn’t mean, not a threat. Many unarmed civilians are killed while assaulting a police officer. This may not seem common but its mostly because no one covers those cases because its so clear that the shooting was justified. Perhaps one day someone will invent something that the police can use to stop an assault without resorting to killing the person. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2018, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12525 "2018-01-17T16:48:48Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > Perjury almost never enters into it. The officer files his account, IA looks at it, end of story. In most cases, the blue wall has closed up before it can even get to the grand jury phase. Perjury means testifying under oath. If the brotherhood, abetted by Uncle DA, can smother the controversy, no one will have to lie under oath. Police reports are usually filed under penalties of perjury. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2018, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12526 "2018-01-17T17:00:54Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > You live in fantasy land. > > Perjury is illegal, yes. It is also very difficult to prove under the best of circumstances. See, when a cop shoots an unarmed person and it is not captured by bystander video, the investigation is done by other cops in the same department. "Brother cops’. The cop’s version of events is the official record and cops protect their own. > Again, [Michael Slager](http://www.charlotteobserver.com/latest-news/article188553834.html) was only convicted because a bystander got video. Notice that there is no mention of the other cop who saw Slager drop the weapon on the corpse and then handcuff it. > > Again, if were not for bystander video, _this would be the official version, an unquestioned legal fact_. One case three years ago is not enough to make all police shootings of unarmed civilians suspect. If all cops were like that, there would be almost no unarmed police shootings because they’d plant a gun on all the dead civilians. Most police officers now have body cams. The police officer’s body cams are frequently loaded up to the cloud contemporaneously to prevent tampering by the officer. Police shootings that occur while the body cam was off draws a significant amount of scrutiny from IA. There has not been a statistically significant decrease in police shootings and killings after the use of body cams. DC found no difference whatsoever in heir police force after implementation of body cams. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2018, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12527 "2018-01-17T17:06:17Z")
> [@Chisquirrel](#): > > Killing people lying in the street with their hands in the air, Who is this? Michael Brown? It has been pretty well established that none of the witnesses that saw him with his hands up are credible. The cop in that case was far more credible. > [@](#): > > pulling up their pants while being forced to crawl while keeping hands up, He was told not to reach for his waist, he reached for his waist, he got shot. He shouldn’t have been shot but its not so cavalier as you seem to make it out. > [@](#): > > and just answering their door is a right? Who is this? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2018, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12528 "2018-01-17T17:12:03Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > If you claim self defence? Yes, obviously. There should be compelling evidence otherwise before you are arrested and charged. That’s why, to pick an example of someone killing in self defence that was discussed in great detail here, George Zimmerman wasn’t arrested immediately. > > To do anything else would be unacceptable victim blaming. For most of our history, self defense has been what we call an “affirmative defense” If you killed someone, the burden was on you to prove by a preponderance of the evidence, that you killed that person in self defense. So no, its not obvious that you should be taken at your word that you killed in self defense, the standard used to be the other way for centuries until recent decades. ---
**Author:** ![Crazy\_Canuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazy_canuck/32/5282_2.png) [@Crazy\_Canuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazy_Canuck)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2018, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12529 "2018-01-17T17:12:57Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Just because you don’t like what I say doesn’t make it hypocritical. I’m not saying you are a hypocrite because I disagree with you, though I absolutely do disagree with you. I’m saying that because you have posted hypocritical shit, [including this gem I cited in this very thread.](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=20717954&postcount=12363) So please go back and read those two quotes of yours, and explain to me how the fuck that’s not hypocritical. I’m not holding my breath, because your habit seems to be ignoring any facts that are presented to you and then insisting that we are just being mean to you because Reasons, but I can dream. Also, for the record, I do agree with you that mocking people for their mental health problems is pathetic. I don’t think you are a sociopath. I can see why others do, because your posts do show a severe lack of empathy. However, your posts also show far too much fear to be a sociopath. IME, people who idolize using force to defend themselves, like you have in this thread, are fucking terrified of the world. Then fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate. and hate leads to pointless arguments on a message board. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2018, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12530 "2018-01-17T17:24:02Z")
> [@UCBearcats](#): > > Unfortunately we don’t always know which cops are truly doing their job and doing it well. There are too many dirty, lazy, and aggressive cops that cause us to be in fear and danger. even one is too many but what percentage of cops do you think are dirty lazy and aggressive? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2018, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12531 "2018-01-17T17:31:19Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > That’s factually incorrect. Claiming otherwise is just silly, really. Most of the “facts” that you know are based on Zimmerman’s testimony. Zimmerman claims he got out of his truck to read road signs in his own neighborhood. That’s when the kid who has been trying to get away from him bumrushed him and started to beat his head into the ground. It is equally likely that Zimmerman got out of his truck to confront Martin and pulled out his gun. Martin seeing the gun rushed Zimmerman and proceeded to attack him in self defense and then Zimmerman shot him. Why is it so clear to you that Zimmerman was the one acting in self defense? Why isn’t it equally as likely that Martin was the one acting in self defense? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2018, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12532 "2018-01-17T17:34:54Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > To quote a wise man, “deserves got nothing to do with it”. Neither has race. > > There’s is overwhelming evidence that Zimmerman is innocent, and video evidence that supports the cops in the Rice case. Those are facts, not opinions, and then I’m somehow a liar? That’s another unsupportable statement that certain people hope repeating will make true. There is reasonable doubt in the Tamir Rice case but that’s only because we have video. The reasonable doubt in the Zimmerman case comes almost entirely from the fact that he is the only one left alive to testify. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2018, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12533 "2018-01-17T17:49:15Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Why not? I told him not to pull his weapon, and he did. Therefore it’s a threat, so I can shoot him because I was afraid. > > Cops get to do it, why can’t I? Why do cops get special treatment? Because the police have something called the police power. A cop is allowed to point a gun at you while trying to enforce the law. Its why we give them guns in the first place. They are allowed to detain you by force, they are allowed to do all sorts of shit you and I can’t. If a cop says “you had sex with my wife, I’m going to kill you” then you could probably shoot him if he tried to pull out his gun. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2018, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12534 "2018-01-17T17:51:03Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Because the police have something called the police power. A cop is allowed to point a gun at you while trying to enforce the law. Its why we give them guns in the first place. They are allowed to detain you by force, they are allowed to do all sorts of shit you and I can’t. Strange. Isn’t that why people want to carry guns around? So they can enforce the law when the police aren’t around? Regular citizens are not allowed to enforce the law? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2018, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12535 "2018-01-17T17:52:03Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Also, unlike many cases discussed here, Martin did not know Zimmerman was armed, so that’s irrelevant, and his state of mind would not have been affected by that. How do you know? How do you know that Martin wasn’t attacking Zimmerman in self defense because Zimmerman pulled his gun on Martin? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2018, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12536 "2018-01-17T17:59:45Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Yes, I know, is that all we can glean from Zimmerman’s narrative about his movements? I mean I can certainly understand Zimmerman’s confusion given the sheer number of streets there are in The Retreat at Twin Lakes! > I mean just how reasonable is it to expect anyone to remember the name of the street they have to turn on to enter the apartment complex they live in?!? > > CMC fnord! There are literally 3 streets in the entire development. One that forms a loop and two that bisect the loop. Its hard to believe that a resident of the community could be unsure of where he is in such a simply laid out community. > **[retreat at twin lakes map - Bing](https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=EDEU%2BUvQ&id=2584B526771D220E8E0D6B8E0B0D8DF05F639987&thid=OIP.EDEU-UvQ61dSTvq0OzunSQHaF7&mediaurl=http%3A%2F%2F3.bp.blogspot.com%2F-dNNqQrIzlPM%2FUOtmdHFtPeI%2FAAAAAAAAFMA%2FnQ5_8Yl5p_Q%2Fs1600%2Fimages.jpg&exph=1024&expw=1280&q=retreat%2Bat%2Btwin%2Blakes%2Bmap&simid=608019718730615654&ajaxhist=0)** > > Intelligent search from Bing makes it easier to quickly find what you’re looking for and rewards you. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2018, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12537 "2018-01-17T18:30:54Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Yes, to avoid the “What if they have it pointed at a bank teller, or 7-11 clerk, or whatever” argument. > > Great, so I can go around trying to make citizen’s arrests on people who I think are carrying illegally, and if they reach for their gun, I can shoot them? If you are a cop, yes. If you are pulling a Zimmerman, no. This is the area where the rights of cops and civilians differ. Cops do not have a duty to retreat anywhere I can think of. Cops have police power, civilians do not. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2018, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12538 "2018-01-17T18:37:22Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Cops have police power, civilians do not. As asked before: > [@Slash1972](#): > > Strange. Isn’t that why people want to carry guns around? So they can enforce the law when the police aren’t around? > > Regular citizens are not allowed to enforce the law? ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2018, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12539 "2018-01-17T18:46:14Z")
> [@Orwell](#): > > Offhand, I can think of several: > > The guy in Walmart who was shot carrying a BB gun. He was not pointing it at anyone, and absolutely did not point it at the cop who shot him. > > The kid who was shot in a park walking by a gazebo. He made no threatening move at all and was shot. > > The apparently crazy guy who was walking down the middle of the street and was shot. He was not cooperating and seemed out of it, but he made no moves to threaten the cops. > > In all cases, the official police statements were that the non-cops threatened them in a deadly manner. I could spend time looking up the video cites, but I think most of us have seen the videos. By this time, I think we’ve all seen too many such videos. ---
**Author:** ![Orwell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/dfb087/32.png) [@Orwell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orwell)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2018, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12540 "2018-01-17T19:00:40Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Strange. Isn’t that why people want to carry guns around? So they can enforce the law when the police aren’t around? > > Regular citizens are not allowed to enforce the law? Since you asked twice, I’ll proffer that nobody I know (who is not a cop) carries a gun to enforce laws. People carry guns to protect themselves and their loved ones. Speaking only for myself, I have no desire to enforce any laws and would not step in to thwart an observed crime that didn’t involve perceived immediate threat of death or serious injury. Are you expecting a different answer, or have different beliefs? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2018, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12541 "2018-01-17T19:02:30Z")
> [@Orwell](#): > > Since you asked twice, I’ll proffer that nobody I know (who is not a cop) carries a gun to enforce laws. People carry guns to protect themselves and their loved ones. Speaking only for myself, I have no desire to enforce any laws and would not step in to thwart an observed crime that didn’t involve perceived immediate threat of death or serious injury So you would step in to thwart an observed crime that DID involve perceived immediate threat of death or serious injury? Isn’t that enforcing the law? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=626) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=628)