# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 628
**Author:** ![Orwell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/dfb087/32.png) [@Orwell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orwell)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2018, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12542 "2018-01-17T19:18:42Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > So you would step in to thwart an observed crime that DID involve perceived immediate threat of death or serious injury? Isn’t that enforcing the law? Maybe, maybe not. If I did step in, it wouldn’t be to enforce the law, it would be to save lives. It would have nothing to do with enforcing any laws. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2018, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12543 "2018-01-17T19:22:07Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > So you would step in to thwart an observed crime that DID involve perceived immediate threat of death or serious injury? When the assailant is a police officer? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2018, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12544 "2018-01-17T19:33:44Z")
> [@Orwell](#): > > Maybe, maybe not. If I did step in, it wouldn’t be to enforce the law, it would be to save lives. It would have nothing to do with enforcing any laws. Ok, fair enough. And how would you determine if there was an immediate threat of death or serious injury? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2018, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12545 "2018-01-17T19:35:14Z")
> [@Orwell](#): > > Offhand, I can think of several: > > The guy in Walmart who was shot carrying a BB gun. He was not pointing it at anyone, and absolutely did not point it at the cop who shot him. Are you talking about John Crawford? > **[Officer: ‘I fired two shots center-mass at (John Crawford III)’](https://www.daytondailynews.com/news/local/officer-fired-two-shots-center-mass-john-crawford-iii/gGiZUov76z5xScodwI57nI/)** > > When Beavercreek police confronted John Crawford III in Walmart on the night of Aug. 5, he ignored their commands to drop his weapon. There is no audio but other than the claim that they ordered John Crawford to drop the gun, the video seems o verify everything the officer said. Crawford was holding the gun, they shot him, he ran away then he came back towards the gun and they shot him again. I don’t see how the video contradicts what they said. > [@](#): > > The kid who was shot in a park walking by a gazebo. He made no threatening move at all and was shot. We can argue about whether or not a slo mo of the vide of Tamir Rice’s death shows he moved his hands towards his waist or not but I do not see anything in the video that contradicts there statements. The only thing they might be lying about is the verbal warnings. > [@](#): > > The apparently crazy guy who was walking down the middle of the street and was shot. He was not cooperating and seemed out of it, but he made no moves to threaten the cops. > > In all cases, the official police statements were that the non-cops threatened them in a deadly manner. I could spend time looking up the video cites, but I think most of us have seen the videos. Can you cite to the police statements? Because the ones I am seeing do not contradict the video. I’m not saying that I think there was nothing wrong with any of these shootings but I don’t see how their statements are contradicted by the video. ---
**Author:** ![Orwell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/dfb087/32.png) [@Orwell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orwell)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2018, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12546 "2018-01-17T19:51:04Z")
> [@](#): > > I’m not saying that I think there was nothing wrong with any of these shootings but I don’t see how their statements are contradicted by the video. I don’t have any cites regarding what the police testified to, so you may be correct. I was working off memory, recalling how the police said the suspects pointed weapons at them. The videos clearly show that the people never pointed any guns at the police. In the Crawford and Rice cases, the cops shoot immediately, apparently before even asking any questions or giving any orders. “Shoot first, ask questions later” seemed to be the order of the day. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2018, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12547 "2018-01-17T20:16:49Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > clearly you need a refresher, here’s just a few: So what percentage do you think it is? The first example you give is not even a police shooting. The second one (Dubose) involves POLICE video. You really think the cop in this case intentionally lied knowing that their bodycam captured the whole thing? Or is it possible that the 2 or 3 seconds between when he tried to open the decedent’s door and when the decedent drove away might have been confusing and chaotic? If the police are really as scummy as you say then why didn’t they destroy the body cam and plant a gun on the body? I mean that is what is causing all this distrust, right? The South Carolina cop planting a weapon on the dead body. The Third one ALSO involves police video. But this one definitely stinks. Chicago police has been a cesspool for decades. The 4th one Rashad McIntosh seems sketchy too. Chicago again!!! color me surprised. The 5th one is once again, not a shooting. So, let me ask again, what percentage of police killings do you think fall into this category? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2018, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12548 "2018-01-17T20:18:08Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > I sure would like to see a cite on that. I posted the link to the video upthread. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2018, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12549 "2018-01-17T20:22:01Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Strange. Isn’t that why people want to carry guns around? So they can enforce the law when the police aren’t around? > > Regular citizens are not allowed to enforce the law? No. They are allowed to defend themselves and to a limited extent others. They are not allowed to arrest me for prostitution or dealing drugs. Cops can. They can do so with force and at the point of a gun. If YOU a civilian tried to arrest me for prostitution, at the point of a gun, I could probably shoot you and it would be self defense. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2018, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12550 "2018-01-17T20:23:31Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Perhaps one day someone will invent something that the police can use to stop an assault without resorting to killing the person. Well, they have tasers but tasers require pretty good accuracy and thin clothing. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2018, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12551 "2018-01-17T20:28:11Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > No. They are allowed to defend themselves and to a limited extent others. They are not allowed to arrest me for prostitution or dealing drugs. Cops can. They can do so with force and at the point of a gun. No? There is no such thing as citizen’s arrest anymore? During a recent shooting, people got in their truck and chased the shooter down. Was that illegal? Should those guys go to jail? What does “not allowed” mean in your sentence. It is illegal to do it? Unwise? Something else? I can hold someone attempting to break into my house at gunpoint. Isn’t that force? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2018, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12552 "2018-01-17T21:16:53Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > That’s _a_ definition, which firstly doesn’t describe what actually happened, based on the evidence, and secondly is deliberately misleading when we’re discussing whether or not a crime was committed, as “stalking” is a crime, and completely different from that definition. Oh, are we playing the “you’re clearly using an extremely common word in the middle of a standard English sentence, but I’ll pretend that you were using it in a technical legal sense because I enjoy looking stupid on the internet” game? In that case explain the following quotes: > [@Steophan](#): > > Of course I’m aware [that Dunn was convicted of the first degree murder of Davis] > [@Steophan](#): > > none of the dead kids I’ve written about recently were murdered. It’s going to be difficult for you to reconcile those two quotes, but good luck. > [@](#): > > Still not sure what’s stupid about “thug” only being racist to Indians. Do you actually know what the word refers to? [It has nothing to do with black people.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thuggee) Are you genuinely this stupid? ---
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2018, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12553 "2018-01-17T21:28:34Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Still not sure what’s stupid about “thug” only being racist to Indians. Do you actually know what the word refers to? It has nothing to do with black people. > > Are you genuinely this stupid? It’s akin to saying that Arabs can’t be anti-Semitic because they are also Semites. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2018, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12554 "2018-01-17T21:43:17Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > It’s going to be difficult for you to reconcile those two quotes, but good luck. Not really. I’ve repeatedly said I believe that Dunn’s murder conviction is unsound, and that therefore Davis wasn’t murdered. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2018, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12555 "2018-01-17T21:49:41Z")
> [@Folacin](#): > > It’s akin to saying that Arabs can’t be anti-Semitic because they are also Semites. Calling Arabs “semites” is only correct in a linguistic context, not in any other. If used in that context, it would be silly to think it refers to race, religion, or nationality. Same with the discussion of “stalk” earlier. In the context of whether Zimmerman committed a crime, it’s silly to use that word in a completely different context, one that doesn’t refer to action towards a human at all. Likewise, I’ve made it clear that I’m using “thug” in it’s normal meaning, to refer to an aggressive, antisocial person. That you immediately assume that refers to a black person says more about you than me. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2018, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12556 "2018-01-17T22:12:35Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Not really. I’ve repeatedly said I believe that Dunn’s murder conviction is unsound, and that therefore Davis wasn’t murdered. Your belief is not based on evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Crazy\_Canuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazy_canuck/32/5282_2.png) [@Crazy\_Canuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazy_Canuck)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2018, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12557 "2018-01-17T22:27:49Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Likewise, I’ve made it clear that I’m using “thug” in it’s normal meaning, to refer to an aggressive, antisocial person. That you immediately assume that refers to a black person says more about you than me. Translated: Likewise, I’ve made it clear that I’m using “nigger” in it’s normal meaning, to refer to a person with black skin. That you immediately assume that means I’m a racist asshole says more about you than me. Also, I see you ignored my request to explain the hypocrisy from you that I cited, just as I predicted. ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2018, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12558 "2018-01-17T22:50:50Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > So what percentage do you think it is? That’s the whole point of this thread. We don’t know what percent of cops do these things and how often they do it. But, it appears to be much larger than we’ve been led to believe! We’ve been told for years (decades? ages?) that these things absolutely did not happen. That the police did not target certain people because of where they live or the color of their skin. That the police did not charge people for crimes they did not commit. That the police did not kill unarmed civilians. That the police did not misrepresent the facts on crime reports and in court testimony. And in case after case we are finding that they do do these things. What percentage do you think is acceptable? And what percentage do you think we’ll finally learn is actually occurring? mc ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2018, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12559 "2018-01-18T00:09:01Z")
[Detroit man awarded $1 million for wrongful conviction](https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/detroit-man-awarded-dollar1-million-for-wrongful-conviction/ar-AAuPc9R) > [@](#): > > Desmond Ricks was released from prison last May when new tests showed that bullets recovered from the body didn’t match the gun that was presented as the weapon in the slaying. He and the Innocence Clinic at University of Michigan law school made a remarkable claim, accusing Detroit police of switching bullets. > [@](#): > > Ricks’ lawyer, Wolfgang Mueller, said yet another round of tests showed bullets taken from the victim didn’t match a gun that belonged to Ricks’ mother. Police seized that gun and said it was used to kill Gerry Bennett. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2018, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12560 "2018-01-18T01:07:36Z")
Mentioned in SRIotD, the governor of New Mexico want to [protect the state’s fuzz](https://www.abqjournal.com/1117026/gov-wants-to-grant-immunity-to-police.html) from their victims. > [@](#): > > (Gov. Susana) Martinez … suggested that legislation granting legal immunity to law enforcement officers would protect not just the officers but taxpayers, too. “This bill would protect citizens and law enforcement officers from the massive payouts that taxpayers are giving crooks and thieves who are hurt or injured by police officers who are doing their job” … ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2018, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12561 "2018-01-18T14:00:40Z")
> [@Orwell](#): > > I don’t have any cites regarding what the police testified to, so you may be correct. I was working off memory, recalling how the police said the suspects pointed weapons at them. The videos clearly show that the people never pointed any guns at the police. In the Crawford and Rice cases, the cops shoot immediately, apparently before even asking any questions or giving any orders. “Shoot first, ask questions later” seemed to be the order of the day. How can you tell? There is no audio. But generally in the WalMart case it does seem like the victim is unaware of the presence of the police until he gets shot. Tamir Rice seems to be aware of what is going on but he is 12. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=627) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=629)