# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 640
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2018, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12782 "2018-03-21T20:30:18Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > [Sacramento police shoot and kill black man in his own backyard after mistaking cellphone for weapon](http://www.newsweek.com/police-shoot-and-kill-black-22-year-old-his-own-backyard-after-mistaking-854910) > > The police were scared so they shot him 20 times. This has been the big news on the Sacramento news stations for several days now. ---
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2018, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12783 "2018-03-21T20:38:45Z")
> [@UCBearcats](#): > > Another civilian gets messed up by a cop who is not following the rules. Hopefully the guy comes out of his coma. > > [Detroit cop shouldn't have been working as bouncer, Craig says](http://on.freep.com/2uagrSy) Possibly a distinction without a difference against the blue wall, but he was working as private security at the time. ---
**Author:** ![UCBearcats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/77aa72/32.png) [@UCBearcats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UCBearcats)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2018, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12784 "2018-03-22T02:46:43Z")
> [@Folacin](#): > > Possibly a distinction without a difference against the blue wall, but he was working as private security at the time. He didn’t get permission for moonlighting as security. Detroit does not allow off duty police to work at bars. He didn’t report the use of force. He was violating several policies. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2018, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12785 "2018-03-22T03:01:38Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > The police were scared so they shot him 20 times. I’m not outraged at the 20 times. That’s a single magazine for each police officer. If they’re going to shoot at all, shooting through an entire magazine is not inappropriate. But that’s where the outrage does come. The decision to fire in the first place should never have been made. Actually, I might be angrier if it turned out they each only fired a couple times. That would compound their incompetence with even more incompetence and/or a potential indication they did not consider themselves under a sufficiently serious threat to merit the use of deadly force. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2018, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12786 "2018-03-22T03:20:17Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > The office involved resigned: > > [North Carolina police officer faces charges after beating, choking and tasing suspected jaywalker](https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/09/us/asheville-police-taser-jaywalking/index.html) > > One thing I found unusual about this case is the police chief was oddly forthcoming about it all instead of the usual insistence that it was all the fault of the suspect. I didn’t see any of the cops on this message board stating how fucked up this was. Did they? Does anyone have a link to any cops that post here criticizing this? I mean, fucking jaywalking? ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2018, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12787 "2018-03-22T03:45:20Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I didn’t see any of the cops on this message board stating how fucked up this was. Did they? Does anyone have a link to any cops that post here criticizing this? I mean, fucking jaywalking? Don’t hold your breath. ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2018, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12788 "2018-03-22T05:55:16Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > I’m not outraged at the 20 times. That’s a single magazine for each police officer. If they’re going to shoot at all, shooting through an entire magazine is not inappropriate. > > But that’s where the outrage does come. The decision to fire in the first place should never have been made. > > Actually, I might be angrier if it turned out they each only fired a couple times. That would compound their incompetence with even more incompetence and/or a potential indication they did not consider themselves under a sufficiently serious threat to merit the use of deadly force. this I don’t understand. . . if you’re gonna shoot, empty your gun. . .that’s outrageos to me! mc ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2018, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12789 "2018-03-22T13:49:21Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > this I don’t understand. . . if you’re gonna shoot, empty your gun. . .that’s outrageos to me! > > mc Why? If you perceive a threat, you shoot until the threat is gone. I don’t think you can expect the cops, or anyone else, to be gingerly. Shooting is a go/no go decision. AKA “never point a weapon at something you aren’t willing to kill”. Whether or not this specific instance was justified doesn’t change the dynamics. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Orwell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/dfb087/32.png) [@Orwell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orwell)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2018, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12790 "2018-03-22T13:54:38Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > this I don’t understand. . . if you’re gonna shoot, empty your gun. . .that’s outrageos to me! > > mc I agree. IF shooting is necessary (and I certainly don’t think it was in this instance), you are supposed to shoot to stop the threat. Which, to most people (my supposition) means one or two shots and then pause to see if there is a continued threat. Not empty your 10-round mag because your scared. But we regularly see police shootings where dozens of rounds are fired, with most emptying their guns. Seems more like panic than well-trained behavior. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2018, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12791 "2018-03-22T14:07:03Z")
> [@Orwell](#): > > I agree. IF shooting is necessary (and I certainly don’t think it was in this instance), you are supposed to shoot to stop the threat. Which, to most people (my supposition) means one or two shots and then pause to see if there is a continued threat. If he really has a gun, one of the ways one can find out if there is a continued threat is if he shoots you. A police shooting isn’t kindergarten - we don’t take turns. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Orwell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/dfb087/32.png) [@Orwell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orwell)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2018, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12792 "2018-03-22T14:11:30Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > If he really has a gun, one of the ways one can find out if there is a continued threat is if he shoots you. > > A police shooting isn’t kindergarten - we don’t take turns. > > Regards, > Shodan Well, that’s certainly ONE way to find out. I admit it’s easier to be a Monday morning QB than be there. But are you saying police are trained to empty their guns? To just keep pulling the trigger? And I would like your serious thoughts on police switching from 6-shot revolvers to 7-, 10-, 15- or even 17-shot semi-auto pistols. I’m not sure it’s a good thing. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2018, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12793 "2018-03-22T14:26:30Z")
> [@Orwell](#): > > But are you saying police are trained to empty their guns? To just keep pulling the trigger? When a cop-friend of mine taught me to shoot my handgun in a household defense situation, he stressed identifying my target and then firing into the center of mass until the threat had been neutralized, which really meant until I was out of bullets. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2018, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12794 "2018-03-22T14:32:26Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Why? If you perceive a threat, you shoot until the threat is gone. What exactly does this mean? Until your target is down? Until your target stops moving? Until there isn’t enough left to identify? If one cop fires 4 times(by which time the suspect is down and not moving) and his partner at the same time fires 4 times then continues on to fire 6 more times, which cop do you admire more? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2018, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12795 "2018-03-22T14:33:27Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > When a cop-friend of mine taught me to shoot my handgun in a household defense situation, he stressed identifying my target and then firing into the center of mass until the threat had been neutralized, which really meant until I was out of bullets. What about reloading and continuing? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2018, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12796 "2018-03-22T14:33:34Z")
What if your target isn’t neutralized and you are out of bullets? Throw the gun at him? ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2018, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12797 "2018-03-22T14:43:05Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > What about reloading and continuing? Well, I kept two speed-loaders in my bedside table drawer with the gun, but **no**. That would show intent to kill, not just neutralize the threat. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2018, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12798 "2018-03-22T14:46:48Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > What if your target isn’t neutralized and you are out of bullets? Throw the gun at him? In all the practice sessions we did (at home and at a gun-range) a typical situation in the home had a dead or dying intruder once the gun was empty. You aren’t firing over a long distance, at most it is across the length of a room. Firing at an advancing target at the range, I’d usually put all my shots into the target. The handgun was a S&W .357 magnum. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2018, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12799 "2018-03-22T14:51:22Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > Well, I kept two speed-loaders in my bedside table drawer with the gun, but **no**. That would show intent to kill, not just neutralize the threat. What is the difference? Doesn’t firing 10 shots at someone show intent to kill? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2018, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12800 "2018-03-22T14:58:09Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > What is the difference? Doesn’t firing 10 shots at someone show intent to kill? Please use the proper terminology: You aren’t firing at somebody who may are may not be reaching for their cellphone or registration. You are Neutralizing the Target. The Target has only one purpose in life-to kill you. ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2018, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12801 "2018-03-22T15:17:50Z")
Twenty shots were fired. Clark was hit “multiple times”. In a residential back yard. To neutralize the threat to themselves, police became a threat to everybody else in the area. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=639) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=641)