# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 641
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2018, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12802 "2018-03-22T15:21:24Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > When a cop-friend of mine taught me to shoot my handgun in a household defense situation, he stressed identifying my target and then firing into the center of mass until the threat had been neutralized, which really meant until I was out of bullets. And then you have to pray the threat didn’t bring any friends, right? What bullshit. Massive ethical issues aside, that’s just crappy doctrine. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2018, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12803 "2018-03-22T15:24:46Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > What is the difference? Doesn’t firing 10 shots at someone show intent to kill? Firing 10 shots from my revolver would require emptying it and reloading. (It is a 5 shot revolver) ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2018, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12804 "2018-03-22T15:26:35Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > And then you have to pray the threat didn’t bring any friends, right? If you empty your weapon at close range, you actually hit the target, and the target shrugs it off and keeps coming for you, you should look to see if he is wearing a hockey mask or maybe an inverted William Shatner mask. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2018, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12805 "2018-03-22T15:31:38Z")
> [@Orwell](#): > > Well, that’s certainly ONE way to find out. > > I admit it’s easier to be a Monday morning QB than be there. But are you saying police are trained to empty their guns? To just keep pulling the trigger? To keep firing until the subject is no longer a threat. In a high-stress situation, police generally fire a lot of shots, for a lot of reasons - people don’t instantly collapse at the first hit, it is very hard to hit even a human-sized target under extreme stress, etc. You can’t usually turn that kind of thing on and off on a split-second. > [@](#): > > And I would like your serious thoughts on police switching from 6-shot revolvers to 7-, 10-, 15- or even 17-shot semi-auto pistols. I’m not sure it’s a good thing. I am not sure limiting the amount of firepower available is a bad thing. It has to do, not with how many times the suspect gets shot, but whether or not the shooting is justified. A justified shooting of 17 shots is not IMO significantly different from a justified shooting of six, and an unjustified shooting where the suspect is hit once or twice is, I suppose, better than 17 but that is almost besides the point. If he didn’t really present a threat, he shouldn’t have been shot at all. ISTM that there are limits to the idea that “more is better” - I wouldn’t necessarily say that police should routinely be carrying sub-machine guns - but having 17 shots available overall vs. six isn’t going to change the number of unjustified shootings very much. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > If one cop fires 4 times(by which time the suspect is down and not moving) and his partner at the same time fires 4 times then continues on to fire 6 more times, which cop do you admire more? Shut up, troll. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2018, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12806 "2018-03-22T15:35:14Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > When a cop-friend of mine taught me to shoot my handgun in a household defense situation, he stressed identifying my target and then firing into the center of mass until the threat had been neutralized, which really meant until I was out of bullets. I have a friend who is a CO at a prison. He always tells me two shots center mass, then evaluate. Obvious downside of going until you are out of bullets is that you are now out of bullets. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2018, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12807 "2018-03-22T15:44:14Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I have a friend who is a CO at a prison. He always tells me two shots center mass, then evaluate. > > Obvious downside of going until you are out of bullets is that you are now out of bullets. Good point. There you are with a gun emptied into an already demolished body, and suddenly you are confronted with your opponent’s partner(s). If you had stopped after killing him once you might have some ammo left, but you had to kill him three or four times over out of fear that he was Jason Voorhees or somesuch. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2018, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12808 "2018-03-22T15:54:40Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I have a friend who is a CO at a prison. He always tells me two shots center mass, then evaluate. COs in prison do not usually carry guns ([cite](https://www.correctionalofficeredu.org/training/)) so his advice may not match the experience of an LEO confronting a suspect very well. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2018, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12809 "2018-03-22T16:04:13Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I have a friend who is a CO at a prison. He always tells me two shots center mass, then evaluate. > > Obvious downside of going until you are out of bullets is that you are now out of bullets. Make sure you keep count of incoming and outgoing: > [@Harry Callahan](#): > > “Did he fire six shots or only five?” Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement I kind of lost track myself. But being as this is a .44 Magnum, the most powerful handgun in the world, and would blow your head clean off, you’ve got to ask yourself one question: “Do I feel lucky?” Well, do ya, punk? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2018, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12810 "2018-03-22T16:07:49Z")
> [@Folacin](#): > > Make sure you keep count of incoming and outgoing: Harry Callahan never felt the need to empty his gun into any single target. Just sayin’. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2018, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12811 "2018-03-22T16:09:44Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > COs in prison do not usually carry guns ([cite](https://www.correctionalofficeredu.org/training/)) so his advice may not match the experience of an LEO confronting a suspect very well. Neither do the vast majority of civilians, yet here you are. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2018, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12812 "2018-03-22T16:20:42Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > To keep firing until the subject is no longer a threat. In a high-stress situation, police generally fire a lot of shots, for a lot of reasons - people don’t instantly collapse at the first hit, it is very hard to hit even a human-sized target under extreme stress, etc. You can’t usually turn that kind of thing on and off on a split-second. > I am not sure limiting the amount of firepower available is a bad thing. > > It has to do, not with how many times the suspect gets shot, but whether or not the shooting is justified. A justified shooting of 17 shots is not IMO significantly different from a justified shooting of six, and an unjustified shooting where the suspect is hit once or twice is, I suppose, better than 17 but that is almost besides the point. If he didn’t really present a threat, he shouldn’t have been shot at all. ISTM that there are limits to the idea that “more is better” - I wouldn’t necessarily say that police should routinely be carrying sub-machine guns - but having 17 shots available overall vs. six isn’t going to change the number of unjustified shootings very much. Having 17 instead of 6 means that the lethality is greater, which means that the person is more likely to die, and whether or not the shooting is justified, police are not supposed to be executioners. Given the accuracy that cops have, 17 instead of 6 is also more bystanders to get hit. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2018, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12813 "2018-03-22T16:26:40Z")
Perhaps if the officers had taken an extra thirty seconds to evaluate the situation and the suspect before strutting in prepared for slaughter, they might have determined that he did not have a gun. This is the criticism that has been leveled in the Tamir Rice incident. Why they are not trained for measured approach to a situation is not clear to me, but it seems like that would result in fewer needless deaths. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2018, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12814 "2018-03-22T16:28:27Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > COs in prison do not usually carry guns ([cite](https://www.correctionalofficeredu.org/training/)) so his advice may not match the experience of an LEO confronting a suspect very well. > > Regards, > Shodan Not when they are on the ranges, but they certainly do have them and train with them in case shit goes down. > [@from your cite that apparently you didn't bother to read.](#): > > Firearms training is necessary for corrections officers even if they do not typically carry them during their professional duties. Prison guards in close proximity with offenders generally do not carry firearms, but still must maintain proficiency in case of emergencies or if they are assigned to perimeter tower duty. This training may include use of pistols, rifles and shotguns. Proficiency in the use of these firearms must be regularly demonstrated through qualifying tests; in most states, re-qualification must occur annually. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2018, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12815 "2018-03-22T16:34:28Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Having 17 instead of 6 means that the lethality is greater, which means that the person is more likely to die, and whether or not the shooting is justified, police are not supposed to be executioners. Given the accuracy that cops have, 17 instead of 6 is also more bystanders to get hit. OK, then let’s see the studies showing how many bystanders get hit, or how many more suspects die, when police carry six-shooters vs. when they carry 17-shot semiautomatic. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2018, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12816 "2018-03-22T16:38:11Z")
[11 years of police gunfire.](http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/08/nyregion/08nypd.html) > [@](#): > > New York City police officers fire their weapons far less often than they did a decade ago, a statistic that has dropped along with the crime rate. But when they do fire, even at an armed suspect, there is often no one returning fire at the officers. Officers hit their targets roughly 34 percent of the time. And in Chicago-[92 deaths, 2623 bullets.](http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/watchdog/ct-chicago-police-shooting-database-met-20160826-story.html) > [@](#): > > •At least 2,623 bullets were fired by police in 435 shootings. In 235 of those incidents, officers struck at least one person; in another 200 shootings, officers missed entirely. > •About four out of every five people shot by police were African-American males. > •About half of the officers involved in shootings were African-American or Hispanic. > •The officers who fired weren’t rookies but, on average, had almost a decade of experience. > •Of the 520 officers who fired their weapons, more than 60 of them did so in more than one incident. ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2018, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12817 "2018-03-22T16:47:28Z")
During the 2012 Empire State Building shooting, one officer fired 9 shots and another fired 7. Nine bystanders were hit, three directly and six by bullet fragments. ---
**Author:** ![SaneBill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e68b1a/32.png) [@SaneBill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SaneBill)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2018, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12818 "2018-03-22T17:00:52Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > Firing 10 shots from my revolver would require emptying it and reloading. (It is a 5 shot revolver) This reminds me of the most egregious defense in court I ever read: “It was an accidental shooting.” The victim had more than 2 clips of bullets in his body :smack: The guy should’ve been disbarred on the spot. ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2018, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12819 "2018-03-22T17:56:02Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > . . . If you perceive a threat, you shoot until the threat is gone. . . > > Regards, > Shodan A man standing in his own back yard **IS NOT A THREAT**! If a cop perceives him to be a threat, then it is my opinion that he is unfit to assess the situation. If a _reasonable police officer_ would find him a threat. then it is my opinion that police officers should not be in that situation. I find it outrageous that the only response to a perceived threat is to kill it. mc ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2018, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12820 "2018-03-22T18:03:04Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > A man standing in his own back yard **IS NOT A THREAT**! I don’t think you can make that statement absolutely. Surely you can think of situations in which someone standing in his own back yard is a threat. > [@](#): > > If a _reasonable police officer_ would find him a threat. then it is my opinion that police officers should not be in that situation. I must not be understanding you - putting yourself into harm’s way is part of a cop’s job. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2018, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12821 "2018-03-22T18:14:55Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > . . putting yourself into harm’s way is part of a cop’s job. > > Regards, > Shodan If the only response to being in harm’s way is to shoot your way out of it, then it should not be part of anyone’s job. and, besides, as was pointed out earlier in this thread, a cop is under no obligation to be in harm’s way. mc [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=640) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=642)