# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 645
**Author:** ![SaneBill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e68b1a/32.png) [@SaneBill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SaneBill)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2018, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12882 "2018-03-28T17:56:43Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Clark did appear to have a weapon in his hand, so he was a threat. No. He did _appear_ be a threat. A big difference. > [@](#): > > The police should _not_ wait until he actually gets the weapon out and starts shooting. Nobody have said that cop should wait until suspect starts to shoot. > [@Shodan](#): > > “Doctor, it hurts when I do this.” > “Then don’t do it.” You example is amazingly stupid. Do you really think this is a competent advice from a doctor ? Then again your follow-up is on the same level, if it would be that simple this thread wouldn’t exist at all. No regards. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2018, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12883 "2018-03-28T18:00:42Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Here’s what you should do: _reread this fucking thread and see how much your asinine “advice” doesn’t pertain to most of the situations described therein._ What makes your posts sort of midway between grotesque and funny is your notion that telling people to freeze, put their hands up, and not resist arrest when the cops are pointing guns at you doesn’t pertain to whether or not they get shot. Sometimes I think it’s trolling, sometimes I think it’s stupidity, sometimes I think it is performance art. This is one of those times. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2018, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12884 "2018-03-28T18:02:47Z")
> [@SaneBill](#): > > No. He did _appear_ be a threat. A big difference. What was the difference at the moment the shooting happened? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2018, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12885 "2018-03-28T18:02:52Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > “Doctor, it hurts when I do this.” > > “Then don’t do it.” Funny story, except when it hurts to breathe. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2018, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12886 "2018-03-28T18:07:56Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > What makes your posts sort of midway between grotesque and funny is your notion that telling people to freeze, put their hands up, and not resist arrest when the cops are pointing guns at you doesn’t pertain to whether or not they get shot. Your post would be better if there wasn’t video like [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_FkzbTf-KM) where a guy is waving an obvious gun around while the police surprisingly don’t immediately shoot him. So, white guy waving an immediately identifiable gun around - not a threat Black guy with something in his hand - threat that needs immediately shot 20 times. Yeah, ok. ---
**Author:** ![SaneBill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e68b1a/32.png) [@SaneBill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SaneBill)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2018, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12887 "2018-03-28T18:21:25Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > What was the difference at the moment the shooting happened? Huh? Are you asking what’s the difference between guilty and innocent ? I think I’ve pinpointed the problem we have here. The others are talking about cops and you are talking about lynch-law vigilantes that kill suspects because they’re guilty by default as there’s never smoke without fire. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2018, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12888 "2018-03-28T18:22:08Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Your post would be better if there wasn’t video like [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_FkzbTf-KM) where a guy is waving an obvious gun around while the police surprisingly don’t immediately shoot him. > > So, white guy waving an immediately identifiable gun around - not a threat > > Black guy with something in his hand - threat that needs immediately shot 20 times. > > Yeah, ok. And, of course, if you are a black guy, don’t pick up a BB gun in walmart. [You’ll get shot with no warning](https://www.cnn.com/2014/12/16/justice/walmart-shooting-john-crawford/index.html). ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2018, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12889 "2018-03-28T18:25:58Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > What was the difference at the moment the shooting happened? > > Regards, > Shodan Again, how do you konw what happened at the moment of the shooting? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2018, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12890 "2018-03-28T18:38:17Z")
> [@SaneBill](#): > > Huh? Are you asking what’s the difference between guilty and innocent ? No, I am asking for the difference between an apparent threat and a real one, at the moment when the threat is presented. How do you tell the difference? > [@](#): > > I think I’ve pinpointed the problem we have here. The others are talking about cops and you are talking about lynch-law vigilantes that kill suspects because they’re guilty by default as there’s never smoke without fire. No, I don’t think that’s the problem. Do you know the difference between killing a suspect because you think he is pointing a gun at you, and being convicted in a court of law? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2018, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12891 "2018-03-28T18:58:02Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Do you know the difference between killing a suspect because you think he is pointing a gun at you, and being convicted in a court of law? If you are a cop, you can make that claim fit the most ridiculous situations and not be convicted for the most part? If you feel you have to empty your gun before letting your mind register the fact that a cell phone doesn’t look like a weapon in any way, shape or form then maybe you should find a profession where common objects don’t make you panic and attack. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2018, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12892 "2018-03-28T19:01:20Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > No, I am asking for the difference between an apparent threat and a real one, at the moment when the threat is presented. If the threat is just apparent, then it isn’t a threat yet. Is it _really_ asking too much of our police to get better at telling the difference between the two? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2018, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12893 "2018-03-28T19:04:59Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > No, I am asking for the difference between an apparent threat and a real one, at the moment when the threat is presented. How do you tell the difference? You can use that to justify shooting anyone. They could have been a threat, they could have a gun, they could have a knife, they might try to run. At the moment when the police first encounter someone, how do they determine that there is or is not a real threat? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2018, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12894 "2018-03-28T19:10:03Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > You can use that to justify shooting anyone. They could have been a threat, they could have a gun, they could have a knife, they might try to run. At the moment when the police first encounter someone, how do they determine that there is or is not a real threat? Skin color? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2018, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12895 "2018-03-28T19:20:48Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > At the moment when the police first encounter someone, how do they determine that there is or is not a real threat? Does he run away, resist arrest, fail to show his hands, come at you with something in his hand after you point a gun at him - subtle cues like that. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2018, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12896 "2018-03-28T19:21:17Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > What is the difference between “instantly” and “before he gets off a shot”? This is an important point. The police all too often seem to charge into a situation and start shooting at the flimsiest of provocation when what they really need to do is assess the situation from a distance rather than creating a situation at close quarters. This would save them from making a fair number of their instantaneous mistakes. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2018, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12897 "2018-03-28T19:24:35Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Does he run away, resist arrest, fail to show his hands, come at you with something in his hand after you point a gun at him - subtle cues like that. > > Regards, > Shodan Do they run at him screaming conflicting orders at him while flailing around with a deadly weapon-not so subtle threats to his life like that. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2018, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12898 "2018-03-28T19:30:29Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Does he run away, resist arrest, fail to show his hands, come at you with something in his hand after you point a gun at him - subtle cues like that. > > Regards, > Shodan What if he [Lays down with his hands in the air?](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jul/21/florida-police-shoot-black-man-lying-down-with-arms-in-air) ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2018, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12899 "2018-03-28T19:44:02Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Does he run away, resist arrest, fail to show his hands, come at you with something in his hand after you point a gun at him - subtle cues like that. > > Regards, > Shodan Can you please indicate where [this victim](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Charles_Kinsey) of a police shooting did any of that? ETA: Ninja’d by Manson, so how about [this one?](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Philando_Castile) ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2018, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12900 "2018-03-28T19:45:56Z")
How about Sean Groubert? If the shooting hadn’t been captured on camera, and/or if his victim had died, would have have been successfully prosecuted? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2018, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12901 "2018-03-28T20:25:30Z")
I will assume from the attempts to talk about other cases that my point has been carried about this case. Regards, Shodan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=644) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=646)