# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 648
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2018, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12942 "2018-03-29T17:52:21Z")
> [@Projammer](#): > > [Cops confront Domino’s employee over undelivered pizza, get suspended](http://www.foxnews.com/food-drink/2018/03/29/cops-assault-dominos-employees-over-undelivered-pizza.html) > > Good to know that some departments are taking misconduct seriously. > > Though I don’t doubt this would be taking a different route if there had been no video. Looks justified to me. If he didn’t get the pizza, and then never ate anything ever again, he would die of starvation— therefore, he reasonably feared for his life. Or if, deprived of the pizza, he had no choice but to eat Popeye’s chicken instead, he would risk salmonella poisoning or choking on a bone. Frankly, that he was able to show such restraint is worthy of a commendation. **Steophan** , you’re good at this… let’s hear a few of your excuses. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2018, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12943 "2018-03-29T17:53:38Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > We do a very poor job of it. Police departments do not check references or past employment history. They do not provide training in de-escalation, but rather in just shooting anytime they feel scared. I considered asking for cites on this - that the police are trained to just shoot anytime they feel scared - but I don’t think it is necessary. > [@](#): > > What kind of training do you think that citizens should be required to have to ensure having safe interactions with cops to decrease the likelihood of them making a “mistake” that you pay for? My father taught me not to break the law, or run from the police. My mother taught me to look both ways before I crossed the street. As I mentioned, my judo _sensei_ taught me not to startle someone pointing a gun at me. (Fortunately, what my father taught me made it unnecessary to use the advice my _sensei_ taught me.) I grant you, most of the people, black or white, who wind up getting shot resisting arrest or fleeing didn’t have the benefit of their father, or even a father figure like my honored _sensei_. But I would hope that even those folks had a mother who taught them to not to be too fucking stupid, and to stand still and show your hands when the cops catch you busting windows at night. A forlorn hope, apparently. Remember the scene in _The Jerk_, where the Steve Martin character’s father takes him out before his great pilgrimage, and shows him a can of shoe polish and then points to a pile of excrement? “Son - this is shit. And this is Shinola.” That’s the kind of training they need. So, apparently, do many Dopers. If they had received it, maybe we wouldn’t have this thread, filled with so much of what you-all apparently think is shoe polish. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2018, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12944 "2018-03-29T17:56:30Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > (5) You’re in a desert walking along in the sand when all of the sudden you look down, and you see a tortoise, crawling toward you. You reach down, you flip the tortoise over on its back. The tortoise lays on its back, its belly baking in the hot sun, beating its legs trying to turn itself over, but it can’t, not without your help. But you’re not helping. Why is that? I’m not helping because a cop shot me thinking that the turtle was a gun and he was afraid for his life. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2018, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12945 "2018-03-29T17:57:23Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > We do that already. …do you? Really? There are just under 18,000 different police entities in the United States. Do they all have the same level of screening? Does a policeman on the beat in New York get the same screening as a Sheriff elected to serve his county? What training did Joe Arpaio get? And was it more or less training than a cadet with the LAPD? Timothy Loehmann, the officer that killed Tamir Rice, was in the process of getting fired from the Independence Police Department for being “an emotionally unstable recruit with a lack of maturity and inability to perform basic functions as instructed during a weapons training exercise”: but he quit before they did so. The Cleveland Police Department did not review his personnel file and hired him. Is that the level of screening you deem acceptable? You can’t claim “we do that already” when in reality some police departments have rigorous screening processes and some have nothing at all. > [@](#): > > What kind of training do you recommend so that police never make any mistakes? Strawman. I don’t think anyone is expecting “mistake free police.” But I think it is entirely disingenuous to characterize [this as a mistake](https://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/stephon-clark-shooting-shocking-video-shows-unarmed-black-man-shot-dead-by-police-who-mistook-phone-a3797111.html). The police did not mistakenly aim their weapons at Clark and they did not mistakenly pull the trigger. If they didn’t correctly identify the object in Clark’s hand as a phone that was not a “mistake” but a failure to do the basics of their job. > [@](#): > > What should be the consequence if they do? It would depend on the “mistake” that they made. If they forgot to dot the “i” in a report I think we could probably let that slide. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2018, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12946 "2018-03-29T17:57:53Z")
Shodan, I do know the difference between shit and Shinola. Shinola has it’s uses. You don’t. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2018, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12947 "2018-03-29T18:15:01Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I considered asking for cites on this - that the police are trained to just shoot anytime they feel scared - but I don’t think it is necessary. Of course not, this thread is filled with cites. If you had to ask for one, then that would be a foolish mistake on your part. > [@](#): > > My father taught me not to break the law, or run from the police. My mother taught me to look both ways before I crossed the street. As I mentioned, my judo _sensei_ taught me not to startle someone pointing a gun at me. (Fortunately, what my father taught me made it unnecessary to use the advice my _sensei_ taught me.) Too bad they didn’t teach you not to be a shitty ass troll. > [@](#): > > I grant you, most of the people, black or white, who wind up getting shot resisting arrest or fleeing didn’t have the benefit of their father, or even a father figure like my honored _sensei_. But I would hope that even those folks had a mother who taught them to not to be too fucking stupid, and to stand still and show your hands when the cops catch you busting windows at night. > > A forlorn hope, apparently. My parents taught me to be skeptical, and to not always believe the authority figures side of the story, especially when the other sid can’t tell the story, because they are dead. > [@](#): > > Remember the scene in _The Jerk_, where the Steve Martin character’s father takes him out before his great pilgrimage, and shows him a can of shoe polish and then points to a pile of excrement? “Son - this is shit. And this is Shinola.” Actually, no I don’t. Is that what you base your life philosophies on, comedies from the 70’s? > [@](#): > > That’s the kind of training they need. So, apparently, do many Dopers. If they had received it, maybe we wouldn’t have this thread, filled with so much of what you-all apparently think is shoe polish. Ah, the training that they need is to have great and unquestioning respect and deference for authority figures, never question them, never complain when their rights are violated, and never expect them to improve. ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2018, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12948 "2018-03-29T18:40:06Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > My father taught me not to break the law, or run from the police. And the guy shot in his backyard. Was he breaking the law? Running from police? > [@](#): > > I grant you, most of the people, black or white, who wind up getting shot resisting arrest or fleeing… Gonna stop you right there. Despite about a million TV shows where the hero cop shoots a fleeing suspect, it’s not actually legal for cops to do so. > [@](#): > > …didn’t have the benefit of their father, or even a father figure… Cite? 'Cuz I read this and my dog started howling. > [@](#): > > But I would hope that even those folks had a mother who taught them to not to be too fucking stupid, and to stand still and show your hands when the cops catch you busting windows at night. Or when some random dude, who turns out to be a cop, approaches you in your own back yard while you’re talking on the phone? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2018, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12949 "2018-03-29T18:47:12Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > That’s the kind of training they need. So, apparently, do many Dopers. If they had received it, maybe we wouldn’t have this thread, filled with so much of what you-all apparently think is shoe polish. > > Regards, > Shodan What training do you think the pizza guy was lacking? I mean, the police roughed him up, so he must have not been taught some crucial piece of information that would have allowed him to not get roughed up, right? ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2018, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12950 "2018-03-29T18:53:59Z")
This back and forth is like a mild version of what would happen if the Protect and Serve & Bad Cop, No Donut subreddits ever collided. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2018, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12951 "2018-03-29T19:18:00Z")
> [@GreysonCarlisle](#): > > And the guy shot in his backyard. Was he breaking the law? Running from police? If you expect that the police are very likely going to shoot you and perform cpr on your body as you bleed out, you are still obligated to stand on place and let them do their thing. You are not entitled to try to escape the consummation you so justly deserve. The dead guy in this case fled when the officers confronted him on the sidewalk. They pursued him. He fact that he was in his own back yard was not one that they could know or, really, that could be relevant to them. I am not sure how much we know for certain about what happened. We know what the officers have told us. Their account is granted the most weight, because they are police. If there are other witnesses, contrary accounts will typically be given less weight without other evidence. Live actual video (which some municipalities have tried to outlaw in deed). Treating police testimony as gospel seems like it might be somewhat problematic. I get what that is the case, but there is still a huge risk involved. If they can kill the primary witness and fabricate whatever story they need to to make it look like they had to, well, I feel like they should be tasked with providing more substantial justification than just their own word. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2018, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12952 "2018-03-29T19:18:54Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > What training do you think the pizza guy was lacking? I mean, the police roughed him up, so he must have not been taught some crucial piece of information that would have allowed him to not get roughed up, right? [This guy](http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/no-charges-n-officer-violated-force-policy-article-1.2816186) was never taught that when a cop harasses you while you are sitting on your mother’s porch, you need to make sure that you “Yes Sir, No sir” him, in the most respectful way possible. To not give the cop that is on your property harassing you the utmost deferment is grounds for assault and arrest. [This girl](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECnkuJ43oTo) here didn’t get the lesson. You can see as she is being thrown around the classroom, the rest of the students are keeping their eyes forward, ignoring the peace officer properly conducting his duties. [These girls](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6tTfoifB7Q) needed extra special handling. They could have been hiding a gun in their voluminous bikinis. And of course, we need to teach [our dogs to allow cops to enter into our homes](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCNNiRfQiTg) when we aren’t home without barking. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2018, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12953 "2018-03-29T19:25:23Z")
> [@GreysonCarlisle](#): > > And the guy shot in his backyard. Was he breaking the law? Running from police? I think, technically, it was his grandmother’s back yard, but yes. He was identified (IIRC by the police in the helicopter) as the one who was smashing windows, and then you can see him running. He hadn’t been convicted (in that particular instance - he had previous convictions for robbery and domestic abuse), if that is what you mean. > [@](#): > > Gonna stop you right there. Despite about a million TV shows where the hero cop shoots a fleeing suspect, it’s not actually legal for cops to do so. Here you are correct, more or less. It’s the [fleeing felon rule](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fleeing_felon_rule), and in general, it is not the case that police can always shoot you if you run away. So, you are right, and I accept the correction. Of course, Stephon Clark was not shot while running away, but FWIW. > [@](#): > > Cite? 'Cuz I read this and my dog started howling. I can’t find anything specific about Stephon Clark being raised by a single mother, although his brother says he was staying with his grandmother, and AFAIK his father has not come forward to comment. Since 72% or so of black children in the US are born to a single mother, and [since most live](http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2008/jun/23/barack-obama/statistics-dont-lie-in-this-case/) in homes with a father absent, and since [a clear majority of those who engage in criminal behavior lack a father](http://www.fathermag.com/news/2778-stats.shtml), it’s a fairly safe bet that “most of the people, black or white, who wind up getting shot resisting arrest or fleeing didn’t have the benefit of their father”. > [@](#): > > Or when some random dude, who turns out to be a cop, approaches you in your own back yard while you’re talking on the phone? I am not sure why you included the “or”. The police didn’t select Clark at random to point guns at him. But yes - if someone in a cop uniform points a gun at you and screams “Show your hands”, then you are well advised to stop, show your hands, and stand still. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2018, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12954 "2018-03-29T19:29:03Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Of course, Stephon Clark was not shot while running away, but FWIW. How do you know this? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2018, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12955 "2018-03-29T19:30:14Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > [This guy](http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/no-charges-n-officer-violated-force-policy-article-1.2816186) was never taught that when a cop harasses you while you are sitting on your mother’s porch, you need to make sure that you “Yes Sir, No sir” him, in the most respectful way possible. To not give the cop that is on your property harassing you the utmost deferment is grounds for assault and arrest. I like this part of the story: “In a letter released Friday, Hill criticized city council’s action, accusing it of pursuing “a politically motivated witch hunt” in how it handled the matter.” Hill is the attorney for the Greensboro Police Officers Association. You’d think maybe, he would say something like “This is not how we train our officers, and these two are not indicitive of our police force” or something. Nope, the city council was on a “witch hunt” :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2018, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12956 "2018-03-29T19:33:52Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > How do you know this? To quote a wise man: > [@Slash1972](#): > > Why, the cop said it happened like that. Therefore, it 100% happened exactly like that. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2018, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12957 "2018-03-29T19:44:25Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > How do you know this? He doesn’t appear to be running away in the video. The family is doing its own autopsy, and I expect we will hear about it if the wounds are in the back. I don’t think they will be found to be so - call it a hunch. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2018, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12958 "2018-03-29T19:49:57Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > What would be the consequences be if I emptied a gun into a police officer, then claimed it was too dark to identify him and the radio he was carrying looked like a gun? I’m still awaiting an answer to this question. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2018, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12959 "2018-03-29T19:56:31Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > [These girls](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6tTfoifB7Q) needed extra special handling. They could have been hiding a gun in their voluminous bikinis. Am I correct that the gun-wielding corporal is the same asshole who showed off with a ninja roll a few minutes earlier? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2018, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12960 "2018-03-29T20:05:30Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Am I correct that the gun-wielding corporal is the same asshole who showed off with a ninja roll a few minutes earlier? I took that as a trip and a barely recovered face plant, but it looks to be the same guy. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2018, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/12961 "2018-03-29T20:10:23Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > He doesn’t appear to be running away in the video. The family is doing its own autopsy, and I expect we will hear about it if the wounds are in the back. I don’t think they will be found to be so - call it a hunch. > > Regards, > Shodan You seem awfully comfortable making assumptions and speculating when it’s in favor of the cops, but very critical of any assumptions or speculating that goes against them. Seems unfair to me. I’ve probably got biases too… Do you recognize that you might have some of your own? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=647) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=649)