# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 656
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2018, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13102 "2018-04-12T16:43:56Z")
Yeah, it’s such an unreasonable burden for cops to actually know it’s a gun before killing a guy. And I was responding to the reasoning showed by one cop when tasing a suspect while another cop “reasoned” it was a situation worth killing an unarmed guy over. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2018, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13103 "2018-04-12T16:55:08Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > As long as the decision is not made after the fact, I don’t have an issue either. > > He is acting erratically, he refuses to show his hands, he reaches into his pocket. Turns out he was only reaching for his cell phone is fine - until it isn’t. Didn’t he already have his white, flat iPhone in his hands when they confronted him? ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2018, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13104 "2018-04-12T17:16:10Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > If they had a disagreement over which ice cream flavor to get, I’d agree. > > As it ended with an unarmed man dead, I would say that the cop who did not kill the unarmed man was more in the right than the cop who did kill the unarmed man. Which shows the same bias we accuse **Shodan** and others of. I am not saying the shooting was justified. Just that the reason put forth by **Fear Itself** was flawed. Again, the simple fact that they disagreed does not determine which was right. If _both_ officers had fired their weapons, would _that_ have made them right? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2018, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13105 "2018-04-12T17:24:57Z")
> [@manson1972](#): > > Yeah, it’s such an unreasonable burden for cops to actually know it’s a gun before killing a guy. Depends on the circumstances, wouldn’t you agree? Unless you would care to describe the policies you believe should be in place whereby police can “actually know” it is a gun, in low-light conditions and in the stress of confronting a criminal. Do they wait until they actually see the gun (in low-light conditions)? Do they wait until they can “actually know” that it is not an Airsoft pistol modified to look real? Do they wait until he points it at them? Wait until after he gets off a shot? Pray be specific. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2018, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13106 "2018-04-12T17:35:49Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Depends on the circumstances, wouldn’t you agree? > > Unless you would care to describe the policies you believe should be in place whereby police can “actually know” it is a gun, in low-light conditions and in the stress of confronting a criminal. Do they wait until they actually see the gun (in low-light conditions)? Do they wait until they can “actually know” that it is not an Airsoft pistol modified to look real? Do they wait until he points it at them? Wait until after he gets off a shot? > > Pray be specific. > > Regards, > Shodan Pray tell us what fucking case you are referring to-That will enable us in correcting your “facts”. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2018, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13107 "2018-04-12T17:52:30Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Depends on the circumstances, wouldn’t you agree? > > Unless you would care to describe the policies you believe should be in place whereby police can “actually know” it is a gun, in low-light conditions and in the stress of confronting a criminal. Do they wait until they actually see the gun (in low-light conditions)? Do they wait until they can “actually know” that it is not an Airsoft pistol modified to look real? Do they wait until he points it at them? Wait until after he gets off a shot? > > Pray be specific. > > Regards, > Shodan “Could you positively identify that the suspect had a gun?” Any answer other then yes is wrong. “Was the suspect threatening you with the gun?” Any answer other then yes is wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Crazy\_Canuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazy_canuck/32/5282_2.png) [@Crazy\_Canuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazy_Canuck)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2018, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13108 "2018-04-12T17:57:54Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Unless you would care to describe the policies you believe should be in place whereby police can “actually know” it is a gun, in low-light conditions and in the stress of confronting a criminal. Would you like to describe those policies yourself? In this thread, you seem to be advocating in a world where the cops have been replaced by Judge Dredd, where they can act as judge, jury and executioner based entirely on their personal whims. Do you support any restrictions or punishments at all when cops kill civilians? If so, what are they? Pray be specific. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2018, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13109 "2018-04-12T18:04:04Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Pray tell us what fucking case you are referring to-That will enable us in correcting your “facts”. I was speaking of police policies on shooting in general. I would have thought that my reference to “policies” would have made that clear, even to one of your obviously limited attainments. My apologies for pushing you beyond that of which you are capable. But by all means, pick out a fucking case, and describe the policies (not including after-the-fact second guessing) and describe the policies that should be in place to prevent that shooting, and the practical implications of implementing such policies. If possible. Let me know if you don’t understand more - I can type slower. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2018, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13110 "2018-04-12T18:08:37Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I was speaking of police policies on shooting in general. I would have thought that my reference to “policies” would have made that clear, even to one of your obviously limited attainments. > > My apologies for pushing you beyond that of which you are capable. > > But by all means, pick out a fucking case, and describe the policies (not including after-the-fact second guessing) and describe the policies that should be in place to prevent that shooting, and the practical implications of implementing such policies. If possible. > > Let me know if you don’t understand more - I can type slower. > > Regards, > Shodan No need to type slower. Just type smarter. I was referencing this bit you had just typed, of course(Sorry you have trouble following your own train of thought): " Do they wait until they actually see the gun (in low-light conditions)? Do they wait until they can “actually know” that it is not an Airsoft pistol modified to look real? Do they wait until he points it at them? Wait until after he gets off a shot?" ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2018, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13111 "2018-04-12T18:17:01Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > “Could you positively identify that the suspect had a gun?” > > Any answer other then yes is wrong. > > “Was the suspect threatening you with the gun?” > > Any answer other then yes is wrong. That’s not very specific, but let’s run with it. Suppose we implement such a policy. The police receive a report of someone in a park pointing a gun at people. He is videotaped doing so. The police receive a report that he is pointing a gun at people. The police show up, and he pulls what appears to be a gun, and points it at them. Does that count as “positively identifying” that the suspect has a gun? If you agree that it does, we have no problem. If you want to bring in facts that are not apparent at the time of the shooting, then you are doing what I, for one, would object to, which is Monday-morning quarterbacking. If you want to condemn the police based on facts not in evidence at the time, feel free. Just don’t expect anyone with an IQ in double digits to go along with it. No doubt **Czarcasm** will love it, but notice the caveat. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2018, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13112 "2018-04-12T18:19:51Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I was speaking of police policies on shooting in general. I would have thought that my reference to “policies” would have made that clear, even to one of your obviously limited attainments. > > My apologies for pushing you beyond that of which you are capable. > > But by all means, pick out a fucking case, and describe the policies (not including after-the-fact second guessing) and describe the policies that should be in place to prevent that shooting, and the practical implications of implementing such policies. If possible. > > Let me know if you don’t understand more - I can type slower. Okay, Tamir Rice. Some of policy changes there that would have saved a life. First, actually check the history and references of the officers that you hire. If someone is being fired form one police department due to being unfit for duty, you don’t hire him. Second, even if you have officers that are fit for duty, you should have a policy that says that if someone is suspected of having a gun, you don’t drive right up to them and jump out of the car. You stop somewhat short and assess the situation. Practical implications? Pros, Less people get shot. Cons, people who demonstrate that they are not fit to wear a badge and a gun don’t get to play cops and robbers and cops may have to walk a bit further. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2018, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13113 "2018-04-12T18:19:56Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > That’s not very specific, but let’s run with it. > > Suppose we implement such a policy. The police receive a report of someone in a park pointing a gun at people. He is videotaped doing so. The police receive a report that he is pointing a gun at people. The police show up, and he pulls what appears to be a gun, and points it at them. Does that count as “positively identifying” that the suspect has a gun? In this scenario, what does the cop answer when asked “Could you positively identify that the suspect had a gun?” ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2018, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13114 "2018-04-12T18:24:43Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > That’s not very specific, but let’s run with it. > > Suppose we implement such a policy. The police receive a report of someone in a park pointing a gun at people. He is videotaped doing so. The police receive a report that he is pointing a gun at people. The police show up, and he pulls what appears to be a gun, and points it at them. Does that count as “positively identifying” that the suspect has a gun? > > If you agree that it does, we have no problem. If you want to bring in facts that are not apparent at the time of the shooting, then you are doing what I, for one, would object to, which is Monday-morning quarterbacking. > > If you want to condemn the police based on facts not in evidence at the time, feel free. Just don’t expect anyone with an IQ in double digits to go along with it. > > No doubt **Czarcasm** will love it, but notice the caveat. > > Regards, > Shodan Making up facts again, I see. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2018, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13115 "2018-04-12T18:25:18Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > That’s not very specific, but let’s run with it. > > Suppose we implement such a policy. The police receive a report of someone in a park pointing a gun at people. He is videotaped doing so. The police receive a report that he is pointing a gun at people. The police show up, and he pulls what appears to be a gun, and points it at them. Does that count as “positively identifying” that the suspect has a gun? > > If you agree that it does, we have no problem. If you want to bring in facts that are not apparent at the time of the shooting, then you are doing what I, for one, would object to, which is Monday-morning quarterbacking. > > If you want to condemn the police based on facts not in evidence at the time, feel free. Just don’t expect anyone with an IQ in double digits to go along with it. > > No doubt **Czarcasm** will love it, but notice the caveat. > > Regards, > Shodan I can think of many of my childhood friends that the cops should have shot, according to you, because when we were kids, we had toy guns that looked more like real guns than airsoft guns do now, and we would run around and shoot each other with them. Do you feel that the police have no responsibility to investigate the matter whatsoever before opening fire. Aslo, cite a case of s kid playing with a gun where when the officers showed up, he pointed it at them. If there is video, then it should be easy to see when this happened. If it is just the officer stating that the kid pointed the gun at him, and the video doesn’t show that, then it doesn’t count. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2018, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13116 "2018-04-12T18:39:05Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Aslo, cite a case of s kid playing with a gun where when the officers showed up, he pointed it at them. If there is video, then it should be easy to see when this happened. If it is just the officer stating that the kid pointed the gun at him, and the video doesn’t show that, then it doesn’t count. He has been lying about this case for so long he might actually be buying his own bullshit by now. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2018, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13117 "2018-04-12T19:19:19Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > In this scenario, what does the cop answer when asked “Could you positively identify that the suspect had a gun?” If the cop has any sense, he asks "what do you mean by ‘positively identify’? He was recorded on video pointing what appeared to be a gun at people earlier, we received a report of someone pointing a gun at people, when we pulled up he pulled what appeared to be a gun and pointed it at us. It sure looked like a gun." Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2018, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13118 "2018-04-12T19:22:47Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > If the cop has any sense, he asks "what do you mean by ‘positively identify’? > > He was recorded on video pointing what appeared to be a gun at people earlier, we received a report of someone pointing a gun at people, when we pulled up he pulled what appeared to be a gun and pointed it at us. It sure looked like a gun." > > Regards, > Shodan Sorry, wrong answer. Only “Yes, I was positive it was a gun” is a correct answer. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2018, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13119 "2018-04-12T19:23:46Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > If the cop has any sense, he asks "what do you mean by ‘positively identify’? > > He was recorded on video pointing what appeared to be a gun at people earlier, we received a report of someone pointing a gun at people, when we pulled up he pulled what appeared to be a gun and pointed it at us. It sure looked like a gun." > > Regards, > Shodan Liar. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2018, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13120 "2018-04-12T19:25:23Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I can think of many of my childhood friends that the cops should have shot, according to you, because when we were kids, we had toy guns that looked more like real guns than airsoft guns do now, and we would run around and shoot each other with them. Did you point them at the police, around midnight? > [@](#): > > Do you feel that the police have no responsibility to investigate the matter whatsoever before opening fire. When they point what appears to be a real gun at you, how much investigation is appropriate? Do you mean waiting to see if he gets off a shot first? > [@](#): > > Aslo, cite a case of s kid playing with a gun where when the officers showed up, he pointed it at them. If there is video, then it should be easy to see when this happened. If it is just the officer stating that the kid pointed the gun at him, and the video doesn’t show that, then it doesn’t count. So, unless there is video clearly showing what happened - in other words, the video better cover the whole encounter from start to finish, no matter what the lighting conditions and camera angles, then the police are assumed guilty. Gotcha. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2018, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13121 "2018-04-12T19:28:26Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Liar. Typing slower apparently didn’t help. Ah well. No one is surprised. Regards, Shodan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=655) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=657)