# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 665
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2018, 9:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13282 "2018-04-26T09:52:13Z")
> [@Orwell](#): > > Cool story, bro, but have you ever been to the DC Metro area? I grew up here. I live here. This happened in Loudoun County. What do you know about Loudoun County? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2018, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13283 "2018-04-26T10:16:58Z")
> [@Orwell](#): > > You’re right, it doesn’t follow. That’s because I wasn’t making that argument. I am saying that there are so many successful blacks driving expensive vehicles that it makes no sense that being black prompted the stop. It’s not a unique or even unusual combination of factors in the DC area. Just because a black person gets pulled over doesn’t mean it was because of his skin tone. > > Could that be part of the reason? Sure. If so, I bet that cop is EXTREMELY busy pulling over black people driving expensive vehicles. I live in Arlington and work in DC, and have for the last 10 years, and I know many “successful” black folks, and a very large portion of them are pulled over for no apparent reason relatively frequently (as much as multiple times per year). ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2018, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13284 "2018-04-26T12:22:51Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Because if his gun was inside his pants, where they actually found it, and it doesn’t appear on the video, then that casts at least some doubt on the cop’s claim that he saw the gun before he shot the guy in the back. We’ve seen cases, discussed in this very thread, where police claims were directly and clearly contradicted by video evidence. When, specifically, did the cops claim to have seen the gun? We would need to establish that before we can determine if the video contradicts the claim. Earlier, you said - > [@](#): > > Apparently, as long as you yell “He’s got a gun,” that’s a license to do pretty much whatever you want. The cop’s claim that he had a gun seems to have been pretty clearly validated - he did have a gun. So when the cop said “he’s got a gun”, that cop was right. So the cop became aware that the crook had a gun at some point, and that awareness was apparently correct. So again, how does the fact that the gun does not appear in the video contradict the established fact that the crook did indeed have a gun, and that the claim of the cop that he had a gun was correct? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2018, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13285 "2018-04-26T13:33:23Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > That encounter isn’t “controversial,” unless someone cares to take the position that she isn’t a complete asshole or that the cops did anything wrong. The controversial part is that she wasn’t tackled to the ground, or beaten, or had an anal cavity search, or shot. Something that is likely to happen to a black person acting in the same exact way. The best part is, liberal friends I know post that video as an example of “white privilege” and conservatives post that video as an example of the kind of people who worked for Hillary. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2018, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13286 "2018-04-26T13:35:07Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > The cop’s claim that he had a gun seems to have been pretty clearly validated - he did have a gun. Here’s the thing. HOW did the cop know he had a gun? That’s the question. And even if it turned out that he DIDN’T have a gun, the cop could just say “I thought he had a gun” and everything would be alright. ---
**Author:** ![Orwell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/dfb087/32.png) [@Orwell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orwell)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2018, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13287 "2018-04-26T13:40:17Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > I grew up here. I live here. > > This happened in Loudoun County. What do you know about Loudoun County? Quite a bit. It’s typically one of the top three counties in the entire country in terms of income and wages. Very wealthy and expensive county. And growing like crazy. And I’m sure what you are getting at… lower percentage of minorities than most of the other DC area counties. Look, I get the point that blacks face more unwarranted police attention than whites. That’s not fair, of course. But I still argue that a black person driving an expensive car is a regular, expected thing in the DC area. Even in Loudoun County, which boasts a Ferrari and Lamborghini dealership. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2018, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13288 "2018-04-26T14:32:09Z")
> [@Orwell](#): > > Quite a bit. It’s typically one of the top three counties in the entire country in terms of income and wages. Very wealthy and expensive county. And growing like crazy. And I’m sure what you are getting at… lower percentage of minorities than most of the other DC area counties. > > Look, I get the point that blacks face more unwarranted police attention than whites. That’s not fair, of course. But I still argue that a black person driving an expensive car is a regular, expected thing in the DC area. Even in Loudoun County, which boasts a Ferrari and Lamborghini dealership. According to my acquaintances and friends, such folks getting pulled over is also a relatively “regular, expected” occurrence in the DC area (and elsewhere). ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2018, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13289 "2018-04-26T15:09:12Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Here’s the thing. HOW did the cop know he had a gun? That’s the question. What difference does it make how he knew? The cop said the crook had a gun. The crook had a gun. Therefore, the cop was right in saying that he had a gun. What do you think it was - extrasensory perception? Lucky guess? Or maybe - stay with me here - the cop saw the gun, but it didn’t show up on camera. Hell of a stretch, I know. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2018, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13290 "2018-04-26T15:16:50Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > What difference does it make how he knew? > > The cop said the crook had a gun. The crook had a gun. Therefore, the cop was right in saying that he had a gun. The cop was guessing. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2018, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13291 "2018-04-26T15:21:41Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > What difference does it make how he knew? > > The cop said the crook had a gun. The crook had a gun. Therefore, the cop was right in saying that he had a gun. > > What do you think it was - extrasensory perception? Lucky guess? Or maybe - stay with me here - the cop saw the gun, but it didn’t show up on camera. > > Hell of a stretch, I know. > > Regards, > Shodan Recently, a cop said a person had a gun, when it turned out to NOT be a gun. It seems to me that cops are learning that immediately prior to chasing a suspect, just scream “He has a gun” so they don’t have to be in any danger and can just freely shoot a fleeing suspect in the back. Afterward two things can happen: 1. The suspect had a gun. Cop is right 2. The suspect didn’t have a gun. Cop says “I thought he had a gun” Cop is right. There really is no downside to a cop yelling “He has a gun” before chasing any suspect. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2018, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13292 "2018-04-26T15:23:18Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > What difference does it make how he knew? It makes a hell of a lot of difference, because of there was no way of knowing, he was _guessing_, then lying about it later. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2018, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13293 "2018-04-26T15:45:57Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > It makes a hell of a lot of difference, because of there was no way of knowing, he was _guessing_, then lying about it later. What difference does an unfalsifiable proposition make? The cop said he had a gun. He did have a gun. How does one set about proving whether or not the statement that he had a gun is a lie, or the truth, apart from the fact that it was true? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2018, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13294 "2018-04-26T15:48:18Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > What difference does an unfalsifiable proposition make? > > The cop said he had a gun. He did have a gun. How does one set about proving whether or not the statement that he had a gun is a lie, or the truth, apart from the fact that it was true? > > Regards, > Shodan See post #13277. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2018, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13295 "2018-04-26T15:53:58Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > What difference does an unfalsifiable proposition make? > > The cop said he had a gun. He did have a gun. How does one set about proving whether or not the statement that he had a gun is a lie, or the truth, apart from the fact that it was true? Here, read this analysis. I have highlighted the key point to make it easier for you to grasp. > [@Slash1972](#): > > Recently, a cop said a person had a gun, when it turned out to NOT be a gun. It seems to me that cops are learning that immediately prior to chasing a suspect, **just scream “He has a gun” so they don’t have to be in any danger and can just freely shoot** a fleeing suspect in the back. Afterward two things can happen: > > 1. The suspect had a gun. Cop is right > 2. The suspect didn’t have a gun. Cop says “I thought he had a gun” Cop is right. > > **There really is no downside to a cop yelling “He has a gun” before chasing any suspect.** ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2018, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13296 "2018-04-26T16:21:24Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > When, specifically, did the cops claim to have seen the gun? We would need to establish that before we can determine if the video contradicts the claim. Did you watch the video? The suspect runs from behind the house and across the cop’s line of sight. he appears from behind the house at 0.17, and the cop yells about the gun at 0.23. It is reasonable to infer that the cop is claiming to have seen the gun sometime in that six-second timeframe. If you have some alternative analysis that is not just your usual pseudo-socratic JAQing off, you are welcome to offer it. > [@Shodan](#): > > The cop’s claim that he had a gun seems to have been pretty clearly validated - he did have a gun. So when the cop said “he’s got a gun”, that cop was right. So the cop became aware that the crook had a gun at some point, and that awareness was apparently correct. So again, how does the fact that the gun does not appear in the video contradict the established fact that the crook did indeed have a gun, and that the claim of the cop that he had a gun was correct? The question is not simply whether he had a gun. The question is whether the cop actually saw that gun in the period where he used the alleged existence of the gun to justify shooting a guy in the back. If you yell “He’s got a gun” every time you encounter a suspect, whether you see one or not, then you’re going to be right some of the time. But that doesn’t change the fact that it is wrong to claim to have seen a gun when you haven’t. We can compare it, in some ways, to lies told by the Bush administration to justify the Iraq war in 2003. A central claim at the time was that the administration had evidence that Saddam Hussein was holding weapons of mass destruction. This claim was demonstrated to have been a fabrication. If Saddam Hussein had indeed turned out to possess WMDs, this fact would not have provided a _post hoc_ justification for the fabrication. The problem, as others have noted, is that courts have shown incredibly excessive deference to what police claim about their feelings, and about what they saw, without always being willing to make rational and evidence-based analysis of whether an officer’s actions truly were reasonable under the circumstances. Cops know this, and they understand that, as long as they can offer the merest fig-leaf of an excuse about feeling unsafe, courts are going to excuse a wide variety of bad behavior. That’s been demonstrated in quite a few of the court decisions discussed in this thread. “He’s got a gun” (or “I thought I saw a gun”) seems to be taking its place as the escalated-tension equivalent of “I thought I smelled marijuana.” ---
**Author:** ![Orwell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/dfb087/32.png) [@Orwell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orwell)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2018, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13297 "2018-04-26T17:18:12Z")
[Policeman Arrested In Serial Killer Case](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-california-goldenstatekiller/ex-california-policeman-arrested-in-golden-state-serial-killer-case-idUSKBN1HW2RA) > [@](#): > > An elderly former policeman has been arrested and charged with eight murders attributed to the Golden State Killer, a serial criminal responsible for dozens of rapes and slayings that terrorized parts of California during the 1970s and 1980s, authorities said on Wednesday. > > Authorities had long speculated the killer had some military or law enforcement training because of his proficiency with firearms and ability to elude capture for so long. > > Jones acknowledged that some of the earlier crimes were committed while DeAngelo was a policeman. But authorities said his name had never surfaced as a suspect prior to the latest break in the case, which they said came from a “discarded DNA sample” obtained by investigators. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2018, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13298 "2018-04-26T17:38:35Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > The suspect runs from behind the house and across the cop’s line of sight. he appears from behind the house at 0.17, and the cop yells about the gun at 0.23. It is reasonable to infer that the cop is claiming to have seen the gun sometime in that six-second timeframe. So the video does not contradict any claims by the police. On what do you base the inference that the cop did not see the gun before the video began? Regards, Shodan ETA - > [@](#): > > If you yell “He’s got a gun” every time you encounter a suspect, whether you see one or not, then you’re going to be right some of the time. Cops do not yell “He’s got a gun” every time they encounter a suspect. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2018, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13299 "2018-04-26T17:48:28Z")
> [@](#): > > The question is not simply whether he had a gun. The question is whether the cop actually saw that gun in the period where he used the alleged existence of the gun to justify shooting a guy in the back. Don’t you think the fact that he did, in fact, have a gun does something to establish whether or not the cop saw the gun? It seems very much like you are tying yourselves into knots trying to claim that just because the cop was right doesn’t mean he was right. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2018, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13300 "2018-04-26T17:51:34Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Don’t you think the fact that he did, in fact, have a gun does something to establish whether or not the cop saw the gun? > > It seems very much like you are tying yourselves into knots trying to claim that just because the cop was right doesn’t mean he was right. > > Regards, > Shodan Perhaps he just isn’t seeing the response that has been repeated time and time again. Possible solution: Have someone print out a copy of this page and hand it to him, so that he may shove it up his ass and take a closer look at it. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2018, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13301 "2018-04-26T17:53:46Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > 1. The suspect had a gun. Cop is right > 2. The suspect didn’t have a gun. Cop says “I thought he had a gun” Cop is right. > > There really is no downside to a cop yelling “He has a gun” before chasing any suspect. Succinctly put. BTW, this would cover the other cops who may fire at the suspect also. “He said the suspect had a gun! Therefore my fear of being shot by the suspect is justified.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=664) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=666)