# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 666
**Author:** ![SaneBill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e68b1a/32.png) [@SaneBill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SaneBill)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2018, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13302 "2018-04-26T18:04:40Z")
Ever noticed how in most of these case the gun itself is black. So there. Vindicated ! ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2018, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13303 "2018-04-26T18:08:14Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Cops do not yell “He’s got a gun” every time they encounter a suspect. Well, why don’t they? They don’t KNOW the suspect doesn’t have a gun. And because of the laws of this country, it’s trivially easy for anyone to get a gun. Therefore, the safest play for today’s police force is to immediately yell “He’s got a gun” since, you know, there really isn’t any downsides, even if the suspect does not have a gun. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2018, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13304 "2018-04-26T18:46:49Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Don’t you think the fact that he did, in fact, have a gun does something to establish whether or not the cop saw the gun? > > It seems very much like you are tying yourselves into knots trying to claim that just because the cop was right doesn’t mean he was right. It’s not quite clear to me whether you’re really stupid, or intentionally obtuse. Given your general habits and demeanor on this board, I’m inclined towards the latter. I’ve made my position clear. If you want to keep responding without addressing the issue in any substantive fashion, have at it. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2018, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13305 "2018-04-26T19:01:40Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Cops do not yell “He’s got a gun” every time they encounter a suspect. Nope, but they yell it just about every time they shoot someone, even if all they have is a phone. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2018, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13306 "2018-04-26T19:52:05Z")
I don’t see your point. First, you say - > [@Slash1972](#): > > Recently, a cop said a person had a gun, when it turned out to NOT be a gun. It seems to me that cops are learning that immediately prior to chasing a suspect, just scream “He has a gun” so they don’t have to be in any danger and can just freely shoot a fleeing suspect in the back. Afterward two things can happen: > > 1. The suspect had a gun. Cop is right > 2. The suspect didn’t have a gun. Cop says “I thought he had a gun” Cop is right. > > There really is no downside to a cop yelling “He has a gun” before chasing any suspect. Then you ask - > [@Slash1972](#): > > Well, why don’t they? They don’t KNOW the suspect doesn’t have a gun. And because of the laws of this country, it’s trivially easy for anyone to get a gun. Therefore, the safest play for today’s police force is to immediately yell “He’s got a gun” since, you know, there really isn’t any downsides, even if the suspect does not have a gun. There’s no downside, but they don’t do it. It would seem to the logical mind (i.e. someone not like **Czarcasm** ) that your analysis is incomplete, because it does not match the known facts. The police, in fact, do not routinely yell “He’s got a gun” when they encounter a suspect. That would suggest that there is some factor that does present a downside. What do you think that might be? (If, indeed, any kind of thought went into your analysis, which has not been demonstrated.) Obviously morons on the SDMB (hi, guys!) will say ‘even if the cop says he saw the gun, and even if it is shown fairly conclusively that he had a gun, that doesn’t prove he saw the gun’. But I don’t see what can be done about that - ‘cops are always wrong until proven right, and also after’ is an article of faith rather than reason-based, so derisive laughter is the best or only remedy. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2018, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13307 "2018-04-26T19:54:56Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > It’s not quite clear to me whether you’re really stupid, or intentionally obtuse. None of the above. > [@](#): > > I’ve made my position clear. No, you actually haven’t. Do you think the fact that a gun was found is evidence in favor of the notion that the cop saw the gun? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2018, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13308 "2018-04-26T20:15:13Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Obviously morons on the SDMB (hi, guys!) will say ‘even if the cop says he saw the gun, and even if it is shown fairly conclusively that he had a gun, that doesn’t prove he saw the gun’. But I don’t see what can be done about that - ‘cops are always wrong until proven right, and also after’ is an article of faith rather than reason-based, so derisive laughter is the best or only remedy. The problem with this line of thought is this: In this instance, the cop says “He has a gun”, shoots a guy, and the guy does, in fact, have a gun. You would say - See? The cop was right. How he determined that the guy had a gun is irrelevant, since the guy had a gun. In another instance, a cop said “He has a gun” and it turned out, the guy DIDN’T have a gun. And you say - so what? The cop thought he did, that’s enough to shoot a guy. There are no times where you say “Yeah, the cop was wrong” Now, I don’t think everyone can be right every single time. But whether or not a shot suspect has a gun, if the cop says “he has a gun”, you consider the cop correct, even if the cop only “thought” the guy had a gun. In the past, maybe it could be considered. But nowadays? With body cameras and cell phones cameras and numerous videos of cops outright lying, planting drugs, beating people, kicking people and then lying about it, to shooting a god-damned person who is laying on the fucking ground with his hands in the air saying “Please don’t shoot me”, there comes a time when maybe you don’t take a cops word for it 100% of the time. At least hold cops to the standard that they have to identify a fucking gun before being so scared for their life that they shoot a guy in the back running away. Or a guy laying in the street begging not to be shot. ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2018, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13309 "2018-04-26T20:29:32Z")
> [@Orwell](#): > > Quite a bit. It’s typically one of the top three counties in the entire country in terms of income and wages. Very wealthy and expensive county. And growing like crazy. And I’m sure what you are getting at… lower percentage of minorities than most of the other DC area counties. > > Look, I get the point that blacks face more unwarranted police attention than whites. That’s not fair, of course. But I still argue that a black person driving an expensive car is a regular, expected thing in the DC area. Even in Loudoun County, which boasts a Ferrari and Lamborghini dealership. I grew up in in Loudoun. Lots of poor people interspersed with the millionaires. And yeah, quite a few cops who believe a black person driving a nice car is probably a drug dealer. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2018, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13310 "2018-04-26T20:38:04Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > The problem with this line of thought is this: In this instance, the cop says “He has a gun”, shoots a guy, and the guy does, in fact, have a gun. You would say - See? The cop was right. How he determined that the guy had a gun is irrelevant, since the guy had a gun. > > In another instance, a cop said “He has a gun” and it turned out, the guy DIDN’T have a gun. And you say - so what? The cop thought he did, that’s enough to shoot a guy. I think I see the problem here. You keep presenting this as a problem, but he sees it as a “win/win” situation because the only people adversely effected or all those undesirables that probably deserve what they get. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2018, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13311 "2018-04-26T21:23:38Z")
…“he’s got a gun” appears to be the new “stop resisting.” ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2018, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13312 "2018-04-27T01:13:51Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I think I see the problem here. > You keep presenting this as a problem, but he sees it as a “win/win” situation because the only people adversely effected or all those undesirables that probably deserve what they get. Yeah, I don’t get that. We should be moving toward “Try to shoot less people” and working towards ways to avoid shooting people. But others try to hold on to the most tenuous evidence that requires the shooting of people. I just don’t get that. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2018, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13313 "2018-04-27T12:25:23Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Yeah, I don’t get that. We should be moving toward “Try to shoot less people” and working towards ways to avoid shooting people. But others try to hold on to the most tenuous evidence that requires the shooting of people. I just don’t get that. You don’t get it because you are projecting. The people holding onto tenuous evidence are the cop-haters, and what they are holding onto is that which they want to use to condemn cops. We see it in this thread. There is no evidence whatever that the cop lied about seeing the gun, conclusive evidence that the crook had a gun, and that constitutes evidence that the cop did not lie about seeing the gun. Yet you-all are squirming around trying to spin “the cop was right” into “the cop was wrong”. You accuse me falsely of saying that all shootings by cops are justified. It would be much closer to the truth to say that you say that no shootings by cops are justified. Still waiting for a response to my earlier question. You claim that there is no downside to the cops saying “He’s got a gun” every time they confront a suspect, yet cops do not say “He’s got a gun” every time they confront a suspect. How do you reconcile that contradiction? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2018, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13314 "2018-04-27T12:37:17Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Still waiting for a response to my earlier question. You claim that there is no downside to the cops saying “He’s got a gun” every time they confront a suspect, yet cops do not say “He’s got a gun” every time they confront a suspect. How do you reconcile that contradiction? That’s easy: Not _all_ cops are murderous pieces of shit. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2018, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13315 "2018-04-27T12:38:49Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Still waiting for a response to my earlier question. You claim that there is no downside to the cops saying “He’s got a gun” every time they confront a suspect, yet cops do not say “He’s got a gun” every time they confront a suspect. How do you reconcile that contradiction? > > Regards, > Shodan Because they are stupid and haven’t thought of it yet? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2018, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13316 "2018-04-27T12:40:30Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > We see it in this thread. There is no evidence whatever that the cop lied about seeing the gun, conclusive evidence that the crook had a gun, and that constitutes evidence that the cop did not lie about seeing the gun. Yet you-all are squirming around trying to spin “the cop was right” into “the cop was wrong”. You accuse me falsely of saying that all shootings by cops are justified. It would be much closer to the truth to say that you say that no shootings by cops are justified. This only holds up if you believe the mere possession of a gun warrants being shot. What if the guy legally possessed the gun? ---
**Author:** ![SaneBill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e68b1a/32.png) [@SaneBill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SaneBill)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2018, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13317 "2018-04-27T12:56:07Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > You claim that there is no downside to the cops saying “He’s got a gun” every time they confront a suspect, yet cops do not say “He’s got a gun” every time they confront a suspect. How do you reconcile that contradiction? Well, apparently the real cop-hater here is you. You’re pretty much saying that all cops are murderous thugs who are always looking for an excuse to kill suspects to be sure they’re not a threat. As others have said many times over, vast majority of cops are reasonable and humane people who want to make the society safe and fair. Not you obviously. And some cops just forget to yell it. _( Edit, damn, double-ninja’ed. )_ ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2018, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13318 "2018-04-27T13:26:54Z")
> [@Orwell](#): > > Quite a bit. It’s typically one of the top three counties in the entire country in terms of income and wages. Very wealthy and expensive county. And growing like crazy. And I’m sure what you are getting at… lower percentage of minorities than most of the other DC area counties. Then I’m sure you’re aware that it hasn’t been that long, really, since western Fairfax County, let alone Loudoun, was basically rural, and Dulles Airport was in the middle of nowhere. Yeah, growth has exploded out there in recent years, especially as western Fairfax became a high-tech corridor in the late 1990s, and people moved into Loudoun because it was close to those jobs, and housing was cheaper. But I’ll bet most of the cops in Loudoun County grew up in Loudoun as it was \>30 years ago. They grew up thinking of DC as a distant drug- and gang-ridden urban hellhole full of black people doing nasty things to each other. And conservative media (Fox, Rush, etc.) still spread the propaganda that whites who go into the big cities where all those black people live are taking their lives into their hands when they do so. But I’m sure Loudoun County cops wouldn’t be inhaling any of that; they’d be watching Rachel Maddow on MSNBC and listening to NPR. > [@](#): > > I still argue that a black person driving an expensive car is a regular, expected thing in the DC area. Even in Loudoun County, which boasts a Ferrari and Lamborghini dealership. So you’re saying that a lot of blacks buy Ferraris and Lamborghinis at that/those dealership(s)? And if not, what’s the connection? ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2018, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13319 "2018-04-27T14:04:36Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Still waiting for a response to my earlier question. You claim that there is no downside to the cops saying “He’s got a gun” every time they confront a suspect, yet cops do not say “He’s got a gun” every time they confront a suspect. How do you reconcile that contradiction? Often the suspect is white. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2018, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13320 "2018-04-27T15:47:41Z")
Question for Stephoan and the other cop lovers 'round these parts. Were [these guys](https://www.news4jax.com/news/30-rounds-fired-by-ar15-in-florida-home-invasion-shootout) in the wrong? > [@](#): > > Three men say they were asleep inside a mobile home in Glen St. Mary about 4 a.m. Sunday when they heard a voice outside yell “Sheriff’s Office!” before the front door burst open. > > In stormed a masked gunman who fired off a single round before two of the men inside, one armed with an AR-15 rifle and the other with a handgun, emerged from two bedrooms and opened fire. ---
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2018, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13321 "2018-04-27T15:56:15Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Question for Stephoan and the other cop lovers 'round these parts. > > Were [these guys](https://www.news4jax.com/news/30-rounds-fired-by-ar15-in-florida-home-invasion-shootout) in the wrong? Obviously not - those weren’t real police, and shooting them in self-defense was fine. However, since they identified themselves as police if they \*had \*been real police then shooting them would have been bad. Also, if they had been real police the firing upon the occupants immediately upon entry would have been fine, because as it turned out the occupants were actually armed and the police would have justifiably been in fear for their lives. I don’t know why you are having a problem with this. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=665) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=667)