# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 676
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2018, 9:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13502 "2018-05-06T09:35:05Z")
> [@SaneBill](#): > > I guess that I’m an idiot then. > Because apparently obeying the laws makes a person an idiot in your world. > > And THAT was your take on the post that I composed more than an hour. > Yes, I guess I’m an idiot for expecting more. If you genuinely believe you never break any laws, you’re an idiot. Are you really telling me that you’ve never broken any traffic laws? Always followed every single regulation with paperwork or whatever and never cut any corners? Hell, if you work in food service and go to work when you’re ill, you’re breaking the law. I wonder how many people obey that one… > [@](#): > > Edit. could you list here the laws YOU break on a daily basis ? No, which is kind of the point. Nobody knows every detail of every law, and most of the time it doesn’t matter unless “the man” has some reason to want to get you. Which they don’t for 99% of cases of (for example) speeding, copyright infingement, underage drinking, personal drug use, and so on. Because _nobody cares_, except apparently busybodies like you. ---
**Author:** ![SaneBill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e68b1a/32.png) [@SaneBill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SaneBill)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2018, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13503 "2018-05-06T10:25:59Z")
I didn’t say I’ve never broken any laws. I have. But IF I break any laws in my everyday life, I don’t do it on purpose and THAT is what I’m talking about. Which, I’m sure, everybody else was smart enough to understand. So can you tell me the laws you break on purpose on your everyday life ? Also the question I mostly wanted you to answer was this: > [@](#): > > So what’s your take on crimes where the victim isn’t even aware it happened ? You know, like embezzling from a demented person, or drug-raping somebody. Would it be petty to inform the cops about these, 'cause who actually got harmed there ? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2018, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13504 "2018-05-06T15:26:10Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > I live in the real world. Look up what happens to whistleblowers sometime, it quite often isn’t pretty. Anyway, no-one - not one single person - follows every law and regulation, whether at work or in their day to day life. While you’re focussing on the waiter who steals a small amount of money, the cook or the manager is figuring out how best to serve out of date, potentially dangerous food, or how to cover up flaws when the inspectors come round. Only one of those things is harmful, and it’s not the petty theft. Yeah, you work in some pretty shitty places. I have too, but I left them, rather than embracing their shittiness. I don’t have to “focus” at all to catch when servers are not ringing in orders, or voiding orders, or using the same check for multiple customers, certainly not to the point of not noticing other things going on. I just have to open my eyes. I will also call people out for health code violations. At most places that I worked, when the health department came in, it was time to keep doing what you were doing, because what you are doing is right, rather than covering flaws. I work with the health department to ensure that we are using best practices, to prevent any possibility of harmful food being served. Sometimes they would find things that we were doing that were not quite up to code, they would give us suggestions on how to fix them, and come back to follow up later to make sure that we were. For one, theft is harmful. That is money that was supposed to go to other people that is being taken for one’s self. It is harmful to me as a cook, that my food cost is high due to theft, as my pay is dependant on food cost being under control. Also, if you are turning a blind eye towards theft, it is not because you are instead focussing on things that are harmful, but because you are turning a blind eye towards everything that people are doing wrong, including health code violations. > [@](#): > > To go back to the cops thing. Should career criminals be getting their heads kicked in? Obviously not, and those caught doing it should be punished appropriately. But they should not be caught, because it would be petty and wrong for their co-workers to “rat them out”. It instead requires video that proves that the cops are lying, and a situation that further degrades the public’s trust in our law enforcement institutions before they may be punished appropriately. Of course, then people like yourself will still complain that it is unfair. > [@](#): > > But a few bruises is far less harm than they do to people, and yet it’s what is more focussed on. Getting kicked in the head like that can cause far more than bruises. Brain trauma can cause lifelong disability. In any case, it is not the officer’s job to deliver vigilante justice. > [@](#): > > Very few cops are going to want to remove someone from their team for doing that, when it means they’ll have to work harder and get more hassle from their other colleagues (and probably superiors). They would only get a hassle if they are breaking the law, rather than upholding it. > [@](#): > > It’s not _right_, no, but it’s normal behaviour, and it’s a minor problem. It’s not a minor problem that the police are assaulting people. It’s not a minor problem that the police are making them self the enemy of the people that they are supposed to be protecting. It is not a minor problem that you and people like yourself are trying to normalize the behavior. > [@](#): > > Drop the hypocrisy and get your priorities sorted. My priorities are fine. Your the one who’s highest priority is towards protecting those who do harm to others. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2018, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13505 "2018-05-07T13:58:02Z")
I witnessed a co-worker giving classified information to a Chinese agent last Friday. And my cousin, who works in a fast food restaurant, saw one of her co-workers peeing in the chili. Too bad we can’t report them, because that’s what fascists do! :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kolak_of_twilo/32/73_2.png) [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolak_of_Twilo)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13506 "2018-05-08T04:42:04Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kolak_of_twilo/32/73_2.png) [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolak_of_Twilo)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13507 "2018-05-08T04:47:56Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > > [@Projammer](#): > > > > [Off-duty police officer in California pointed a gun at man buying Mentos candy](https://abcnews.go.com/US/off-duty-police-officer-california-pointed-gun-man/story) > > > > Because, you know, pulling a gun on a suspected shoplifter is completely reasonable. He might have had a diet Coke in his pocket. > > [Fixed link.](https://abcnews.go.com/US/off-duty-police-officer-california-pointed-gun-man/story?id=54956281) I just saw this story. That cop is a total dumbass. How did someone that dimwitted ever get a badge? ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13508 "2018-05-08T14:41:03Z")
> [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](#): > > I just saw this story. That cop is a total dumbass. How did someone that dimwitted ever get a badge? > [@](#): > > Moments later, a man in black shorts and a black shirt who is standing in line behind Arreola pulls out a gun and tells him to put the candy back. _[RESPECT MY AUTHORITAH!!!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PaKjRMMU9HI)_ ---
**Author:** ![Orwell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/dfb087/32.png) [@Orwell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orwell)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13509 "2018-05-08T14:52:31Z")
> [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](#): > > I just saw this story. That cop is a total dumbass. How did someone that dimwitted ever get a badge? Seems to me to be an example of a cop with the wrong temperament and improper training. Shoplifting doesn’t warrant a gun being pulled on a person, and doing so illustrates that the cop is a) improperly trained; and/or b) too terrified of everyday situations to be a LEO. At least he didn’t shoot anyone, and apparently apologized. I’m glad the man got a lawyer and is suing. In addition to showing these videos to everyone, it’s one of the few ways that police departments can be sent a message. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13510 "2018-05-08T16:07:38Z")
> [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](#): > > I just saw this story. That cop is a total dumbass. How did someone that dimwitted ever get a badge? I think that blaming this on dumbassery is actually generous to the cop. As **Orwell** suggests, this incident is more indicative of a basic problem of temperament, attitude, and ability to deal appropriately with a situation. This guy’s actions in this incident suggest that he’s fundamentally unfit to be a police officer. > [@Orwell](#): > > I’m glad the man got a lawyer and is suing. In addition to showing these videos to everyone, it’s one of the few ways that police departments can be sent a message. Yes and no. It’s good that he’s suing, but if he wins there’s no guarantee that the police department will be sent much of a message. Any settlement will likely be covered by insurance (paid for by the city), and/or by the taxpayers of Buena Park. It probably won’t be taken out of the city’s police department budget. When police officers violate the rights of the people they’re supposed to protect, the people get screwed twice: once, when the cop acts in a way that violates the public trust, and again when the penalty for such violations comes out of the money forked over by taxpayers. And in too many cases, nothing much changes in terms of police behavior. There are cities that have [paid out millions in settlements](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-watch/wp/2014/10/01/u-s-cities-pay-out-millions-to-settle-police-lawsuits/?utm_term=.313d53fd6566), but that don’t seem especially interested in reforming their police departments. As the author of that article notes: > [@](#): > > In theory, the cost of these lawsuits — which are of course ultimately paid by taxpayers — are supposed to inspire better oversight, better government, and better policing. When taxpayers see their hard-earned money spent to compensate victims of police misconduct, they vote for political leaders who will hold cops more accountable. Or at least that’s the theory. I’m not sure how effective that is. I’ve seen little evidence that people generally vote on these issues, even in municipal elections. (The last mayoral race in New York may be one exception.) As he also notes, suing individual officers involved in misconduct or constitutional violations is even harder, because the doctrine of qualified immunity often shields them. Even in cases where courts conclude that an officer’s conduct violated a citizen’s constitutional rights, those same courts often refuse to allow the lawsuit to proceed. And in the small percentage of cases where courts allow lawsuits to proceed, any judgments against the officers are generally not paid by the individual officer in question, but are borne by the city (i.e., by the very citizens whose rights the officer is accused of violating). I think that qualified immunity, at least as it’s currently interpreted by the courts, is one of the most troubling doctrines in the American legal and criminal justice system, and one of the areas most in need of reform. It’s a doctrine made up out of whole cloth by judges, and is probably one of the most obvious examples of true judicial activism in the modern justice system. I understand that public officials probably need some legal indemnity for job-related errors, but not as much as they get, especially when it comes to blatant and often wilful violations of people’s rights. ---
**Author:** ![SaneBill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e68b1a/32.png) [@SaneBill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SaneBill)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13511 "2018-05-08T16:31:58Z")
If somebody would point a gun at me out of blue, I probably would jump back and raise my arms to ‘protect’ me. That is, I would’ve made a sudden move and raised my ( not empty ? ) hands towards the cop. And then Steophan and Shodan would post here to say that it was all my fault that cop killed me. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13512 "2018-05-08T16:45:30Z")
Hypothetical: Two cops hop out of the car and run yelling at the suspect. The driver screams “Hands up!!”, while his partner screams “Don’t move!”. Who gets first shot at the suspect because he couldn’t follow both orders? The driver because he has seniority? The cop that shouts first? The cop that shouts loudest? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13513 "2018-05-08T16:52:52Z")
If the suspect had just complied with the cops’ orders, he wouldn’t have gotten shot! See, easy? ---
**Author:** ![SaneBill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e68b1a/32.png) [@SaneBill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SaneBill)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13514 "2018-05-08T16:54:49Z")
Elementary, If he raises his hands it’s OK if the “don’t move” cop shoots. If he doesn’t move it’s OK if the “hands up” cops shoots. After the first shot he probably won’t anymore obey the other order so it’s OK for both of them to shoot. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13515 "2018-05-08T17:20:55Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > I think that blaming this on dumbassery is actually generous to the cop. As **Orwell** suggests, this incident is more indicative of a basic problem of temperament, attitude, and ability to deal appropriately with a situation. This guy’s actions in this incident suggest that he’s fundamentally unfit to be a police officer. > Yes and no. > > It’s good that he’s suing, but if he wins there’s no guarantee that the police department will be sent much of a message. Any settlement will likely be covered by insurance (paid for by the city), and/or by the taxpayers of Buena Park. It probably won’t be taken out of the city’s police department budget. > > When police officers violate the rights of the people they’re supposed to protect, the people get screwed twice: once, when the cop acts in a way that violates the public trust, and again when the penalty for such violations comes out of the money forked over by taxpayers. And in too many cases, nothing much changes in terms of police behavior. There are cities that have [paid out millions in settlements](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-watch/wp/2014/10/01/u-s-cities-pay-out-millions-to-settle-police-lawsuits/?utm_term=.313d53fd6566), but that don’t seem especially interested in reforming their police departments. As the author of that article notes:As he also notes, suing individual officers involved in misconduct or constitutional violations is even harder, because the doctrine of qualified immunity often shields them. Even in cases where courts conclude that an officer’s conduct violated a citizen’s constitutional rights, those same courts often refuse to allow the lawsuit to proceed. And in the small percentage of cases where courts allow lawsuits to proceed, any judgments against the officers are generally not paid by the individual officer in question, but are borne by the city (i.e., by the very citizens whose rights the officer is accused of violating). > > I think that qualified immunity, at least as it’s currently interpreted by the courts, is one of the most troubling doctrines in the American legal and criminal justice system, and one of the areas most in need of reform. It’s a doctrine made up out of whole cloth by judges, and is probably one of the most obvious examples of true judicial activism in the modern justice system. I understand that public officials probably need some legal indemnity for job-related errors, but not as much as they get, especially when it comes to blatant and often wilful violations of people’s rights. Since the officer was off-duty, does qualified immunity apply? I find it odd that they’re only suing the city when the officer wasn’t even on-the-job. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13516 "2018-05-08T17:35:03Z")
> [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](#): > > I just saw this story. That cop is a total dumbass. How did someone that dimwitted ever get a badge? Seems like he had a “[reasonable and articulable suspicion](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=853332)” that he was involved in criminal activity. I mean, sure it’s a stupid reason, but, while some of us would like to see the bar raised, others are content just kicking it around on the floor. ---
**Author:** ![Orwell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/dfb087/32.png) [@Orwell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orwell)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13517 "2018-05-08T18:04:40Z")
[Ex-cop sentenced to 5 years in prison for beating man he accused of being Walmart shoplifter](http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/05/08/ex-cop-sentenced-to-5-years-in-prison-for-beating-man-accused-being-walmart-shoplifter.html) Note that he actually WAS a cop when he beat the shoplifting suspect… who turned out to have paid for his tomato after all. > [@](#): > > Former Atlanta Police Department Sergeant Trevor King, 49, of Stockbridge was convicted in December 2017 on “federal charges of unreasonable force and falsifying a police report,” the Atlanta Journal-Constitution reported. > > King was shopping at a Walmart in Atlanta in October 2014 when he said he believed he saw Tyrone Carnegay, 53, stealing a tomato. Prosecutors said King, who was in uniform at the time but off-duty, witnessed Carnegay weighing a tomato before leaving the store. King ran over and stopped the man before he left. The officer hit Carnegay with his baton seven times, leaving him with two broken bones in the victim’s right leg. Surveillance video showed King hitting a man with a baton. > > However, King searched Carnegay and discovered a receipt showing he paid for the tomato just a few moments before the attack. > > “King then wrote a false report to cover up his unjustified assault,” prosecutors said. “Additionally, King charged the victim with obstructing a shoplifting investigation and with assaulting a police officer.” ---
**Author:** ![SaneBill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e68b1a/32.png) [@SaneBill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SaneBill)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13518 "2018-05-08T18:13:36Z")
Meh. The cop was black. A non-story. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13519 "2018-05-08T23:20:08Z")
A cop shot and killed a groundhog for the safety of the public. > **[Video shows deputy fatally shooting groundhog in Maryland](https://www.12newsnow.com/article/news/nation-world/video-shows-deputy-fatally-shooting-groundhog-in-maryland/507-549956072)** > > A sheriff's office statement says the deputy put the animal down for the public's safety. ---
**Author:** ![Orwell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/dfb087/32.png) [@Orwell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orwell)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13520 "2018-05-08T23:26:56Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > A cop shot and killed a groundhog for the safety of the public. > [https://www.12newsnow.com/article/news/nation-world/video-shows-deputy-fatally-shooting-groundhog-in-maryland/507-549956072](https://www.12newsnow.com/article/news/nation-world/video-shows-deputy-fatally-shooting-groundhog-in-maryland/507-549956072) It’s hard to say for sure, but if the groundhog didn’t immediately run away, there is a good chance it had rabies. I can’t really fault the cop in this instance. ---
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2018, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13521 "2018-05-09T03:37:54Z")
> [@SaneBill](#): > > Meh. The cop was black. A non-story. Huh? This isn’t “Controversial encounters between white law-enforcement and civilians”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=675) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=677)