# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 685
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2018, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13682 "2018-06-01T15:39:23Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > You think you should be allowed to sit next to someone else’s booze regardless of your age? What kind of question is this? If I’m having a beer and set it down on a picnic table, you think my kids should run away as fast as they can, lest some cop come by and arrest them? ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2018, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13683 "2018-06-01T15:42:34Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > . . .an effective police force is a necessary thing for a functioning society. . . I challenge that assumption. Let’s assume for a second that it is true An “effective” police force does not use violence and intimidation as a tactic. An “effective” police force does not lie to coverup for wrong doing. An “effective” police force does not look the other way when one of its officers breaks, bends, fudges or plays fast and loose with the law. An “effective” police force should be a part of society, working from within to maintain peace. Not outside of it, trying to force society into doing what it deems is the right thing to do. mc ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2018, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13684 "2018-06-01T15:47:20Z")
Here’s my example of an effective police force: I went to a concert to see Kid Rock and Lynard Skynard. In the parking lot were numerous signs about “NO DRINKING IN THE PARKING LOT!”. Cops were all over the parking lot. Making sure that people had their alcohol in Red Solo Cups, and weren’t starting a ruckus. Here’s another one: In Technical Training for the AF years ago, we used to get motel rooms and have parties on the weekend. Inevitably, things would get loud and sure enough the cops would show up. And we would get asked “Everyone is 21, right?” and then told “Keep it inside the room!” That seems like effective policing to me. Nobody arrested, punched, assaulted or anything. People had a good time, safety was maintained. It doesn’t seem that difficult to me. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2018, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13685 "2018-06-01T15:47:44Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > I challenge that assumption. > > Let’s assume for a second that it is true > An “effective” police force does not use violence and intimidation as a tactic. > An “effective” police force does not lie to coverup for wrong doing. > An “effective” police force does not look the other way when one of its officers breaks, bends, fudges or plays fast and loose with the law. > An “effective” police force should be a part of society, working from within to maintain peace. Not outside of it, trying to force society into doing what it deems is the right thing to do. > > mc You are confusing “effective” with “perfect”. An effective police force is simply one that is better than no police force at all. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2018, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13686 "2018-06-01T15:52:04Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It’s okay, I understand that this almost hallucinatorily fictional rendering of the video comes from a place of terror. Your hallucinations and manifestations aren’t reality, they’re just a fiction created by an absolutely terror-stricken mind, and it’s not your fault. > > It’s not your fault that you see brutality as acceptable, and that you see a convicted murderer who shot at fleeing children as someone normal people should want near them. These things aren’t your fault, but you need help to overcome them, and I sincerely hope you seek that help. I’m actually getting the help I need, but thanks for your concern. It remains the case that there’s no brutality in that video, and your attempt to redefine the word won’t change that. Also, I’ve never defending his shooting at fleeing children (were they children? I actually thought they were adults, but that’s not hugely relevant) and have said he was rightly convicted of attempted murder. I’ve _also_ said that people have the right to tell people to turn obnoxiously loud music down, and to defend themselves if attacked for doing so. Those things are not mutually exclusive. ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2018, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13687 "2018-06-01T15:53:29Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > . . .An effective police force is simply one that is better than no police force at all. Again I challenge this assumption. No police force at all would be better than the one we have. mc ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2018, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13688 "2018-06-01T15:54:41Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Here’s my example of an effective police force: > > I went to a concert to see Kid Rock and Lynard Skynard. In the parking lot were numerous signs about “NO DRINKING IN THE PARKING LOT!”. Cops were all over the parking lot. Making sure that people had their alcohol in Red Solo Cups, and weren’t starting a ruckus. > > Here’s another one: > > In Technical Training for the AF years ago, we used to get motel rooms and have parties on the weekend. Inevitably, things would get loud and sure enough the cops would show up. And we would get asked “Everyone is 21, right?” and then told “Keep it inside the room!” > > That seems like effective policing to me. Nobody arrested, punched, assaulted or anything. People had a good time, safety was maintained. It doesn’t seem that difficult to me. Did any of the people there start screaming at the cops, refusing to identify themselves when asked, or physically fight back against them? I assume that things would have gone very differently then. Had the woman in the video calmly identified herself and waited for her aunt to return, instead of escalating matters (to use a phrase others are so fond of), the encounter would almost certainly have gone much like the ones you describe. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2018, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13689 "2018-06-01T15:57:26Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > Again I challenge this assumption. > No police force at all would be better than the one we have. > > mc What utter delusional bullshit. Even in the parts of America with the worst police forces, people are orders of magnitude better off than they would be without them. I don’t know about you, but I like being able to own property and not being subject to random violence, things that would be impossible in your anarchist dystopia. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2018, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13690 "2018-06-01T15:59:20Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > What kind of question is this? If I’m having a beer and set it down on a picnic table, you think my kids should run away as fast as they can, lest some cop come by and arrest them? I think that if you illegally leave your kids in charge of your beer, you have no right to complain if the cops act on it. What you should do is work to change the idiotic law. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2018, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13691 "2018-06-01T16:03:05Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > As I mentioned, the product of mental disease or defect. > > You didn’t surprise us. Too bad. > > Regards, > Shodan I suppose I should be a bit concerned, as the last time that people like you had any say, you did accuse people of mental illness and deficiency as not just a matter of shutting them up, but as a prelude to justifying the genocide of your political opponents. On the one hand, I am not overly surprised that such tactics are rearing their head again, but I am a bit surprised that you are so openly playing from that book. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2018, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13692 "2018-06-01T16:03:54Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > I think that if you illegally leave your kids in charge of your beer, you have no right to complain if the cops act on it. What you should do is work to change the idiotic law. Setting a beer on a picnic table is “leaving my kids in charge of my beer”? What kind of horseshit is this? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2018, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13693 "2018-06-01T16:05:19Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Also, I’ve never defending his shooting at fleeing children (were they children? I actually thought they were adults, but that’s not hugely relevant) and have said he was rightly convicted of attempted murder. I’ve _also_ said that people have the right to tell people to turn obnoxiously loud music down, and to defend themselves if attacked for doing so. Those things are not mutually exclusive. You clearly said he was the type of person that normal people would like to have around. So, you either think what he did was okay, or you think that people convicted of attempted murder for shooting at someone playing loud music are the type of people that normal people would like to have around. Which is it? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2018, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13694 "2018-06-01T16:06:04Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Setting a beer on a picnic table is “leaving my kids in charge of my beer”? What kind of horseshit is this? Considering the source, the entirely predictable kind. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2018, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13695 "2018-06-01T16:06:20Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Did any of the people there start screaming at the cops, refusing to identify themselves when asked, or physically fight back against them? I assume that things would have gone very differently then. Maybe. Perhaps it was the non-threatening nature of the cops that led to a peaceful time? ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2018, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13696 "2018-06-01T16:07:42Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > What utter delusional bullshit. Even in the parts of America with the worst police forces, people are orders of magnitude better off than they would be without them. I don’t know about you, but I like being able to own property and not being subject to random violence, things that would be impossible in your anarchist dystopia. Have your read the Ferguson report that the department of justice published? I am not sure you are right with this statement. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2018, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13697 "2018-06-01T16:08:19Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > What utter delusional bullshit. Even in the parts of America with the worst police forces, people are orders of magnitude better off than they would be without them. I don’t know about you, but I like being able to own property and not being subject to random violence, things that would be impossible in your anarchist dystopia. What? Wouldn’t you be able to stave off any of those with your vast supply of guns that you would maintain? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2018, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13698 "2018-06-01T16:09:52Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > I’m actually getting the help I need, but thanks for your concern. It remains the case that there’s no brutality in that video, and your attempt to redefine the word won’t change that. > > Also, I’ve never defending his shooting at fleeing children (were they children? I actually thought they were adults, but that’s not hugely relevant) and have said he was rightly convicted of attempted murder. I’ve _also_ said that people have the right to tell people to turn obnoxiously loud music down, and to defend themselves if attacked for doing so. Those things are not mutually exclusive. Oh dear, it’s worse than I thought. Your constant irrational terror appears to be affecting your memory now. It’s important for your own mental health that you learn the difference between fact and fiction. For example, it’s a fact that you praised Dunn, a convicted murderer who shot at fleeing children, saying that he is the type of person normal people should want near them. Here are you words (remember, this is a cite from your post – a fact about your own words): > [@Steophan](#): > > People like Zimmerman, who was trying to prevent further burglaries in his neighbourhood, or Dunn, who wanted the selfish scumbags to stop their antisocial noise pollution, are the sort of people normal people want around them. You may have said other things about Dunn at other times (demonstrating that your constant terror also seems to introduce incoherence and periodic disconnects into your mind), but you never retracted this praise of Dunn – again, that a convicted murderer who shot at fleeing children is among the “sort of people normal people want around them”. It’s not your fault that you have these disconnects from fact and reality. The constant terror you feel must be absolutely horrible – I commend you for merely surviving under that kind of mental barrage, however baseless and irrational it is. It’s no wonder that you also see the video of the cop following a terrified girl and brutalizing her for not saying her name, shoving her face into the sand and punching her numerous times despite the fact that she posed zero threat to him or anyone else, as appropriate and reasonable action. But this is just false messages coming from a place of terror, not from rational thought or reason. I urge you to resist it and seek professional help. It’s not your fault that you have these feelings, and this disconnect from truth and reality. It’s not your fault. ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2018, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13699 "2018-06-01T16:16:00Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > What utter delusional bullshit. Even in the parts of America with the worst police forces, people are orders of magnitude better off than they would be without them. I don’t know about you, but I like being able to own property and not being subject to random violence, things that would be impossible in your anarchist dystopia. Do you have proof that no police force would cause society to devolve into an anarchistic dystopia? Are you saying that police or criminals currently cannot deprive you of your property? Are you saying there are no acts of random violence with our current police? are you saying our current police don’t commit rando acts of violence? If there were no police can you be sure that property theft and random acts of violence would increase? If there were no police would you commit property theft or acts of random violence? I wouldn’t. If you think a police force acts as a deterrent against crime, then you haven’t been paying attention. mc ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2018, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13700 "2018-06-01T16:44:20Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > Do you have proof that no police force would cause society to devolve into an anarchistic dystopia? > Are you saying that police or criminals currently cannot deprive you of your property? > Are you saying there are no acts of random violence with our current police? > are you saying our current police don’t commit rando acts of violence? > If there were no police can you be sure that property theft and random acts of violence would increase? > If there were no police would you commit property theft or acts of random violence? > I wouldn’t. > If you think a police force acts as a deterrent against crime, then you haven’t been paying attention. > > mc Started getting into the liquor early this weekend, have we? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2018, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13701 "2018-06-01T16:47:53Z")
I’ll note (once again) that there is a much broader problem in society when brutality is seen as an appropriate and reasonable response to a disobedient (but non-violent) teenager. Teenagers can be obnoxious and disobedient towards authority. That doesn’t warrant brutality in response. Teenagers should give cops their names if they ask, but brutalizing them in response is far, far worse than simply refusing to say one’s name and walking away from a cop. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=684) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=686)