# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 686
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2018, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13702 "2018-06-01T16:53:44Z")
These are the only two worth answering. > [@mikecurtis](#): > > If there were no police would you commit property theft or acts of random violence? > I wouldn’t. You would steal, because you’d have to. You’d commit violence to keep what you had, and wouldn’t be too bothered about carefully checking the actual guilt of the targets, because you’d need to deter people from stealing, and focus on yourself not others. Or, you could starve to death or be killed. _Maybe_ you are moral enough to choose that. Many people aren’t, and it would show. > [@](#): > > If you think a police force acts as a deterrent against crime, then you haven’t been paying attention. If you think it doesn’t, you’ve not been paying attention. Study history. Look how violent and precarious existence was, even in the very recent past, and then look how different it is now, even for the poorest people in Western countries at least, and for all but the very poorest worldwide. Maybe you are confusing this with the studies that show that tougher punishments don’t have a deterrent effect? The same studies, however, show that likelihood of getting caught has a strong deterrent effect, even if the punishment is lower. For that, you need a police force. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2018, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13703 "2018-06-01T16:55:44Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’ll note (once again) that there is a much broader problem in society when brutality is seen as an appropriate and reasonable response to a disobedient (but non-violent) teenager. Teenagers can be obnoxious and disobedient towards authority. That doesn’t warrant brutality in response. Teenagers should give cops their names if they ask, but brutalizing them in response is far, far worse than simply refusing to say one’s name and walking away from a cop. No-one was brutalised. You don’t know what that word means. Using it in this case is an insult to people who’ve actually suffered. This was, at most, excessive use of force where some use of force was required. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2018, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13704 "2018-06-01T16:57:50Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No-one was brutalised. You don’t know what that word means. Using it in this case is an insult to people who’ve actually suffered. This was, at most, excessive use of force where some use of force was required. It’s not your fault that you don’t see punching and shoving the face of a teenager into the sand who was walking away and posed no threat to anyone as brutality. It’s not your fault. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2018, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13705 "2018-06-01T17:00:42Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > You may have said other things about Dunn at other times (demonstrating that your constant terror also seems to introduce incoherence and periodic disconnects into your mind), but you never retracted this praise of Dunn – again, that a convicted murderer who shot at fleeing children is among the “sort of people normal people want around them”. Of course I want people around me who will stand up to bullies and defend themselves against attack. Hell, it’s going to be even more necessary if people here have their way and remove the police force… A community with people like Dunn or Zimmerman in it would be a better one than one with you, **mikecurtis** , **Czarcasm** or any of the other fools posting in this thread that reap the benefits of a relatively orderly society whilst trying to destroy the foundations it’s built on. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2018, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13706 "2018-06-01T17:04:12Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Of course I want people around me who will stand up to bullies and defend themselves against attack. Hell, it’s going to be even more necessary if people here have their way and remove the police force… > > A community with people like Dunn or Zimmerman in it would be a better one than one with you, **mikecurtis** , **Czarcasm** or any of the other fools posting in this thread that reap the benefits of a relatively orderly society whilst trying to destroy the foundations it’s built on. It’s not your fault that you think convicted murderers who shoot at fleeing children are “people who will stand up to bullies”. That’s not reasonable or rational, but it’s not your fault that you’d want to live with people capable of firing guns at children who pose no threat to them or anyone else. It’s not your fault that you see any criticism of law enforcement as “trying to destroy the foundations” of society. I hope you find the help you clearly need. These thoughts aren’t positive, reasonable, or rational, but it’s not your fault that you have them. There’s nothing to fear here. I’m not going to hurt you, and neither are teenagers that do normal teenager things. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2018, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13707 "2018-06-01T17:06:23Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It’s not your fault that you don’t see punching and shoving the face of a teenager into the sand who was walking away and posed no threat to anyone as brutality. It’s not your fault. You are correct, it’s not a fault to see things the way they actually are. Seriously, you think pushing someone’s face in the sand is _brutal_? And remember, or watch the video again if necessary, the punches didn’t happen until after she made herself a threat. Doesn’t necessarily make them right, but it shows that you are again wrong about the facts here. And unlike you, I’m not going to give the benefit of the doubt here. You know the facts, you have watched the video, and it is clearly your fault that you are deliberately lying about them. I would also say that mocking someone’s mental health issues is a severe character flaw, and were it to be someone like, say, the late unlamented **Clothahump** doing it you’d be first in line to criticise them, but it’s so far down the list of flaws you show in just the last few posts in this thread that it’s barely worth talking about. Hypocrisy is, after all, way less an offence than accusing someone of a brutal assault with no evidence. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2018, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13708 "2018-06-01T17:07:28Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > You are correct, it’s not a fault to see things the way they actually are. Seriously, you think pushing someone’s face in the sand is _brutal_? And remember, or watch the video again if necessary, the punches didn’t happen until after she made herself a threat. Doesn’t necessarily make them right, but it shows that you are again wrong about the facts here. > > And unlike you, I’m not going to give the benefit of the doubt here. You know the facts, you have watched the video, and it is clearly your fault that you are deliberately lying about them. > > I would also say that mocking someone’s mental health issues is a severe character flaw, and were it to be someone like, say, the late unlamented **Clothahump** doing it you’d be first in line to criticise them, but it’s so far down the list of flaws you show in just the last few posts in this thread that it’s barely worth talking about. Hypocrisy is, after all, way less an offence than accusing someone of a brutal assault with no evidence. It’s okay. This disconnect with truth and reality (and video evidence) isn’t your fault. Even when you repeatedly said untrue things about me, and refused to take them back or even cite a basis, wasn’t your fault. I wish you the best and hope you find peace. ---
**Author:** ![Norse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a9adbd/32.png) [@Norse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Norse)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2018, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13709 "2018-06-01T17:08:35Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > “Brutality” is such an absurd overstament of what happened there […] > > I’m saying that _at worst_ they used slightly more force than strictly necessary. I beg to differ. So do police departments in more civilized parts of the world. Exhibit 1: [https://youtu.be/Cd8ZTKU8csw](https://youtu.be/Cd8ZTKU8csw) Exhibit 2: [https://youtu.be/cznNf2LUk74](https://youtu.be/cznNf2LUk74) ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2018, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13710 "2018-06-01T17:11:05Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It’s not your fault that you think convicted murderers who shoot at fleeing children are “people who will stand up to bullies”. It is, however, your fault that you think that’s a reasonable summary of my views even after having been corrected numerous times. Someone who plays offensively loud music, then threatens those who tell them to turn it down is a bully. As, for that matter, is someone who attempts to belittle someone and ridicule their views by mocking their mental health issues. Don’t worry, though, I’m not going to shoot you. I’m not even going to suggest you stop, as I’m voluntarily in a forum where that is allowed. I’ll just continue to let you show your true colours. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2018, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13711 "2018-06-01T17:12:40Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > It is, however, your fault that you think that’s a reasonable summary of my views even after having been corrected numerous times. > > Someone who plays offensively loud music, then threatens those who tell them to turn it down is a bully. As, for that matter, is someone who attempts to belittle someone and ridicule their views by mocking their mental health issues. Don’t worry, though, I’m not going to shoot you. I’m not even going to suggest you stop, as I’m voluntarily in a forum where that is allowed. I’ll just continue to let you show your true colours. I hope you find peace. You are worthy of peace and love. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2018, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13712 "2018-06-01T17:15:53Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I hope you find peace. You are worthy of peace and love. Fortunately I have more than my share of both. Hopefully that will remain so, despite your efforts to dimish them. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2018, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13713 "2018-06-01T17:16:50Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Fortunately I have more than my share of both. Hopefully that will remain so, despite your efforts to dimish them. It’s okay. I’m not a threat to you. The world isn’t a threat to you. Peace and love. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2018, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13714 "2018-06-01T17:27:16Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The world isn’t a threat to you. You know, I think I’ve found the disconnect. You actually believe this, you’ve internalised the safety and comfort of the modern world to such an extent that you believe that it’s the natural state of affairs. Like an anti-vaxxer who can’t recognise that the only reason people no longer die in their millions from many diseases us _because_ of vaccinations. Of course the world is a threat, of course people are a threat. But fortunately, humanity has managed to develop a society that reduces those threats and actively works to reduce them further. You, in your myopic ignorance, see only a handful of minor threats and ignore the vast oceans of them that are being actively prevented. Your food is safe, because we have discoverd how to make it so, and because there are well enforced laws that keep it that way. High speed transport is safe for the same reasons. Leaving your valuable property in your house is, again, safe. None of them _perfectly_ so, but your attacks on the police are as nonsensical as attacks on Big Agriculture, or Big Pharma, or whatever. They could all stand to be improved, obviously, but that doesn’t mean they are bad things. And, most likely, they _will_ be improved, as that’s the direction humanity has always gone, even if there are setbacks along the way. Pointing out flaws in these organisations is good, but the paranoid conspiracy nonsense that The Man is out to get you is not. They are no more doing that than farmers are using GMOs to pacify the populace, or drug companies are witholding the cure for cancer. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2018, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13715 "2018-06-01T17:28:52Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > It is, however, your fault that you think that’s a reasonable summary of my views even after having been corrected numerous times. > > Someone who plays offensively loud music, then threatens those who tell them to turn it down is a bully. As, for that matter, is someone who attempts to belittle someone and ridicule their views by mocking their mental health issues. Don’t worry, though, I’m not going to shoot you. I’m not even going to suggest you stop, as I’m voluntarily in a forum where that is allowed. I’ll just continue to let you show your true colours. I don’t think he’s belittling you. I think he’s making a true effort to show how he doesn’t hold you responsible for your clearly insane ideas about the police and the types of people you think normal people want to have around. You should be thanking him for acknowledging that you have some sort of issue and is not holding it against you. I, on the other hand, have no such empathy. I just think you are a moron when it comes to police interactions with the public. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2018, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13716 "2018-06-01T17:30:19Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > You know, I think I’ve found the disconnect. You actually believe this, you’ve internalised the safety and comfort of the modern world to such an extent that you believe that it’s the natural state of affairs. Like an anti-vaxxer who can’t recognise that the only reason people no longer die in their millions from many diseases us _because_ of vaccinations. > > Of course the world is a threat, of course people are a threat. But fortunately, humanity has managed to develop a society that reduces those threats and actively works to reduce them further. You, in your myopic ignorance, see only a handful of minor threats and ignore the vast oceans of them that are being actively prevented. > > Your food is safe, because we have discoverd how to make it so, and because there are well enforced laws that keep it that way. High speed transport is safe for the same reasons. Leaving your valuable property in your house is, again, safe. None of them _perfectly_ so, but your attacks on the police are as nonsensical as attacks on Big Agriculture, or Big Pharma, or whatever. They could all stand to be improved, obviously, but that doesn’t mean they are bad things. And, most likely, they _will_ be improved, as that’s the direction humanity has always gone, even if there are setbacks along the way. > > Pointing out flaws in these organisations is good, but the paranoid conspiracy nonsense that The Man is out to get you is not. They are no more doing that than farmers are using GMOs to pacify the populace, or drug companies are witholding the cure for cancer. It’s okay. None of this has anything to do with anything I’ve posted, but that’s okay. I’m not a threat to you. Teenagers doing teenage things aren’t a threat to you. My citing the specific things that you’ve said, and characterizing them using your exact words, isn’t a threat to you. My criticism of law enforcement isn’t a threat to you. It’s okay. ---
**Author:** ![SaneBill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e68b1a/32.png) [@SaneBill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SaneBill)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2018, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13717 "2018-06-01T17:41:28Z")
So a young pretty girl is minding her own business on the beach. A cop comes to her asking about a bottle of alcohol. She tells that it’s her aunt’s and proves that she haven’t drank from it. All fine and well to this moment. Then this cop asks her surname. She looks at him and sees he’s bad news. This is a guy who is ready to beat up girls and enjoys it. It’s right there in his eyes. And now he asks her personal information, first surname. What next ? Address ? Does she have a boyfriend ? Does she do threesome ? She’s terrified and realizes that she’s almost naked, so she starts to back away calling for her aunt. And the cops thinks that OK, I can have her right here, right now, in front of all these people… She should’ve shot the perv :mad: ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2018, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13718 "2018-06-01T17:43:50Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Of course I want people around me who will stand up to bullies and defend themselves against attack. Hell, it’s going to be even more necessary if people here have their way and remove the police force… > > A community with people like Dunn or Zimmerman in it would be a better one than one with you, **mikecurtis** , **Czarcasm** or any of the other fools posting in this thread that reap the benefits of a relatively orderly society whilst trying to destroy the foundations it’s built on. Well, Dunn and Zimmerman have one thing in common, they both initiated a confrontation with, and then killed black people. If the type of community that you wish to live in is devoid of minorities, then yes, you would like to have Dunn and Zimmerman, rather than those who are able to tolerate other people living near them that may look or act a bit different. ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2018, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13719 "2018-06-01T17:43:53Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > . . .You would steal, because you’d have to. You’d commit violence to keep what you had. . . 1492 Europeans “find” the Americas; where there were already “civilized” native tribes. 1620 Europeans start to colonize the new world in earnest. 1776 Those settlers decide they want to start a country of their own. 1787 The US Constitution is written, still widely recognized as the premier document of a democratic and orderly society. 1838 The first publicly funded, organized police force with officers on duty full-time was created in Boston. Seems to me like we had over 400 years of “civilization” here in America without the anarchistic dystopia that you are so afraid of without the necessity of a police force. You seem to be conflating police with an orderly society. You can have one without the other. mc ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2018, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13720 "2018-06-01T18:08:31Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Well, Dunn and Zimmerman have one thing in common, they both initiated a confrontation with, and then killed black people. No, they didn’t. Asking someone what they’re doing in a private place isn’t confrontation, asking someone to turn their music down isn’t confrontation. ---
**Author:** ![SaneBill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e68b1a/32.png) [@SaneBill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SaneBill)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2018, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13721 "2018-06-01T18:12:01Z")
How expensive is a black man’s life ? Four dollars, reduced to four cents, and [rounded to zero.](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/30/us/gregory-hill-verdict-florida.html) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=685) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=687)