# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 693
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2018, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13842 "2018-06-07T17:09:45Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > No, people are seeing videos of cops punching people in the face, and calling it out. That’s not disagreement with what I said. Cops are allowed to use force on some occasions, so pointing out that a cop has used force doesn’t, by itself, mean anything. > [@](#): > > The latest story would be no story if there wasn’t video. You think none of the cops should have said or did anything against any of the other cops because “petty crime”. It requires comment because apparently none of those cops thought that anything wrong happened and they were only caught because of the video. That’s bullshit. I’ve not referred to this attack as “petty crime”, and I’ve repeatedly supported body cameras. I will, however, say that getting cops to snitch on each other is not going to happen in the short term, if ever, and to achieve it would require a fundamental overhaul of working practices for them. Such an overhaul might be impossible to do without making the police force essentially ineffective, as they need to be able to trust each other, and trust that people will have each other’s backs. Just like in any other situation, but more so. Body cameras will make it far easier to watch the watchmen, so to speak, without unrealistic expectations of people’s behaviour. Body cameras will _also_ show the shhit cops go through on a daily basis, and hopefully make it clear to people just why such an us-vs-them mentality exists. It’s not that policing in America is fundamentally different from elsewhere, it’s that Americans are unusually anti-authoritarian and anti-government. That’s not a partisan issue either - both the Tea Party and Occupy Wall Street fit that bill, as does the election of a President who is doing serious damage to the structures of government. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2018, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13843 "2018-06-07T17:16:34Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > That’s not disagreement with what I said. Cops are allowed to use force on some occasions, so pointing out that a cop has used force doesn’t, by itself, mean anything You know, it’s possible to agree that cops should use force on some occasions without agreeing that that force should include punching people in the face repeatedly. > [@](#): > > I’ve not referred to this attack as “petty crime”, and I’ve repeatedly supported body cameras. I will, however, say that getting cops to snitch on each other is not going to happen in the short term, if ever, and to achieve it would require a fundamental overhaul of working practices for them. Such an overhaul might be impossible to do without making the police force essentially ineffective, as they need to be able to trust each other, and trust that people will have each other’s backs. Just like in any other situation, but more so You’ve referred a cop kicking a hand-cuffed suspect in the head as a “petty crime” I’m certain you would refer to this as a petty crime as well. And the fact that you call turning someone in for committing a crime as “snitching” tells me all need to hear about your views on crimes committed by the police. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2018, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13844 "2018-06-07T17:34:23Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > You know, it’s possible to agree that cops should use force on some occasions without agreeing that that force should include punching people in the face repeatedly. Yes, I know, that was my point. > [@](#): > > You’ve referred a cop kicking a hand-cuffed suspect in the head as a “petty crime” I’m certain you would refer to this as a petty crime as well. And the fact that you call turning someone in for committing a crime as “snitching” tells me all need to hear about your views on crimes committed by the police. You’re certain that I would consider two very different situations as the same? No, that’s what other people, such as yourself, have repeatedly done in this thread. One hit by one person is very different from multiple hits by multiple people, and treating them as the same achieves nothing. As for “snitching”, that tells you nothing about my views on crimes committed by the police compared to crimes committed by anyone else. People _will_ look after their own and use peer pressure to ensure that it happens in a group, whether or not you approve. ---
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2018, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13845 "2018-06-07T17:43:08Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > I’ve not referred to this attack as “petty crime”, and I’ve repeatedly supported body cameras. I will, however, say that getting cops to snitch on each other is not going to happen in the short term, if ever, and to achieve it would require a fundamental overhaul of working practices for them. Such an overhaul might be impossible to do without making the police force essentially ineffective, as they need to be able to trust each other, and trust that people will have each other’s backs. Just like in any other situation, but more so. I assume you expect cops to ‘snitch’ on non-cops when they see them apparently breaking the law, often by arresting them. If I were a cop, I would hope that I would have a fellow officer’s back, unless, you know, he was doing illegal shit and/or being an enormous asshole (while not necessarily breaking any law). Because that would ultimately make my job easier. And cops not ‘snitching’ is not a recent phenomenon brought about by cell phones and Black Lives Matter. Cops have long prioritized protecting their own over protecting the public from their own. ---
**Author:** ![BwanaBob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bwanabob/32/2985_2.png) [@BwanaBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BwanaBob)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2018, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13846 "2018-06-07T17:48:43Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > … I will, however, say that getting cops to snitch on each other is not going to happen in the short term, if ever, and to achieve it would require a fundamental overhaul of working practices for them. Such an overhaul might be impossible to do without making the police force essentially ineffective, as they need to be able to trust each other, and trust that people will have each other’s backs. Just like in any other situation, but more so. > > Body cameras will make it far easier to watch the watchmen, so to speak, without unrealistic expectations of people’s behaviour. Body cameras will _also_ show the shhit cops go through on a daily basis, and hopefully make it clear to people just why such an us-vs-them mentality exists. It’s not that policing in America is fundamentally different from elsewhere, it’s that Americans are unusually anti-authoritarian and anti-government. That’s not a partisan issue either - both the Tea Party and Occupy Wall Street fit that bill, as does the election of a President who is doing serious damage to the structures of government. See I don’t understand this mentality. Why can’t police see that bad apples make all of them look bad when one screws up and they put up the blue wall. An officer should be able to trust a fellow officer to have his back AND to not do stupid shit ever. These two things are not mutually exclusive, they are equal in importance and from the first day in the academy these two things should be drilled into the recruits with equal fervor. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2018, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13847 "2018-06-07T17:49:19Z")
> [@Folacin](#): > > I assume you expect cops to ‘snitch’ on non-cops when they see them apparently breaking the law, often by arresting them. I expect them to do so in most cases. I don’t expect (in the sense of think that it’s likely that they will do it) them to do so if it’s a friend of theirs, or the bosses husband, or whatever. > [@](#): > > If I were a cop, I would hope that I would have a fellow officer’s back, unless, you know, he was doing illegal shit and/or being an enormous asshole (while not necessarily breaking any law). Because that would ultimately make my job easier. For the most part, people who break the law on their job are doing it to make the job easier. > [@](#): > > And cops not ‘snitching’ is not a recent phenomenon brought about by cell phones and Black Lives Matter. Cops have long prioritized protecting their own over protecting the public from their own. As have pretty much every other group. You are asking the police to be uniquely immune to human nature, and that won’t happen quickly or easily, if at all. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2018, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13848 "2018-06-07T17:51:41Z")
> [@BwanaBob](#): > > See I don’t understand this mentality. Why can’t police see that bad apples make all of them look bad when one screws up and they put up the blue wall. An officer should be able to trust a fellow officer to have his back AND to not do stupid shit ever. These two things are not mutually exclusive, they are equal in importance and from the first day in the academy these two things should be drilled into the recruits with equal fervor. Because they care far more about how they look to their colleagues, who they see for hours every day, than to some random person on a message board. Just like almost everybody else. You are talking military style discipline for the training there, which could have unforseen consequences, and as I said would not be quick or easy to implement. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2018, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13849 "2018-06-07T18:43:14Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > As have pretty much every other group. You are asking the police to be uniquely immune to human nature, and that won’t happen quickly or easily, if at all. So then you agree that if I see a colleague that I’ve worked with for 5 years giving classified information to a Chinese agent, I shouldn’t turn him in? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2018, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13850 "2018-06-07T18:44:19Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Yes, I know, that was my point Well, I’m afraid I don’t understand your point. Whenever I see a video and it includes cops punching people in the face, I’m going to say that it is wrong. Every single time. That’s MY point. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2018, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13851 "2018-06-07T20:20:06Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > So then you agree that if I see a colleague that I’ve worked with for 5 years giving classified information to a Chinese agent, I shouldn’t turn him in? Or that Joe Paterno was right to shield Sandusky? Or Cardinal Law was right to protect the pedophiles? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2018, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13852 "2018-06-07T20:24:14Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > So then you agree that if I see a colleague that I’ve worked with for 5 years giving classified information to a Chinese agent, I shouldn’t turn him in? You saw that? Err, I mean, I was just picking up some takeout, yeah. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2018, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13853 "2018-06-07T21:21:45Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > So then you agree that if I see a colleague that I’ve worked with for 5 years giving classified information to a Chinese agent, I shouldn’t turn him in? I’m saying most people wouldn’t. There is, ultimately, absolutely no fucking point whatsoever talking about what people should or shouldn’t do if it’s not going to change. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2018, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13854 "2018-06-07T21:26:05Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Well, I’m afraid I don’t understand your point. Whenever I see a video and it includes cops punching people in the face, I’m going to say that it is wrong. Every single time. That’s MY point. You can tell just from a short video clip, without context, that it’s wrong _every single time?_ That’s an impressive skill. How can you read the mind of the cop, and see what happened before and after, just from a clip of a punch? You just want easy yes/no right/wrong answers. Sadly the real world isn’t like that, and sadly sometimes the cops have to use force - yes, including punches - to subdue and arrest dangerous people. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2018, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13855 "2018-06-07T21:58:07Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > You can tell just from a short video clip, without context, that it’s wrong _every single time?_ That’s an impressive skill. How can you read the mind of the cop, and see what happened before and after, just from a clip of a punch? You seem to be dancing pretty fast here. How about THIS time? They give you context. And the intact video shows exactly what happened directly before the vicious and brutal attack. Bare in mind that this guy was not a suspect in any crime. He was surrounded by 6 cops, close enough where he could feel their breath…till he lost consciousness. From the repeated punches to the face. Hard punches, directly to his face. From a big burly guy who looked really pissed off. Landed 'em all clean. No ‘glancing blows’. And that was _after_ he kneed him in the groin twice. You ever been kneed in the groin? Takes a bit out of you, I can tell ya. But, you can see all of this clearly in the video. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2018, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13856 "2018-06-07T22:09:25Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > You seem to be dancing pretty fast here. How about THIS time? They give you context. And the intact video shows exactly what happened directly before the vicious and brutal attack. Bare in mind that this guy was not a suspect in any crime. He was surrounded by 6 cops, close enough where he could feel their breath…till he lost consciousness. From the repeated punches to the face. Hard punches, directly to his face. From a big burly guy who looked really pissed off. Landed 'em all clean. No ‘glancing blows’. And that was _after_ he kneed him in the groin twice. You ever been kneed in the groin? Takes a bit out of you, I can tell ya. > > But, you can see all of this clearly in the video. You don’t know the context though. It could be that, last week one of these cops passed this guy, and this guy did not drop what he was doing and bow in deference to the cop’s authority. I mean, the cop received that sort of treatment, wouldn’t he be justified in beating him unconscious a week later? [/poe, just in case] ---
**Author:** ![Crazy\_Canuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazy_canuck/32/5282_2.png) [@Crazy\_Canuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazy_Canuck)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2018, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13857 "2018-06-07T22:21:25Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > There is, ultimately, absolutely no fucking point whatsoever talking about what people should or shouldn’t do if it’s not going to change. If there is no point talking about something, why are you here talking about it? Your own actions prove your words to be a lie. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2018, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13858 "2018-06-08T00:16:29Z")
We should be respectful to [Baltimore’s Finest](https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/leader-of-baltimore-police-gun-trace-task-force-sentenced-to-25-years-in-prison/ar-AAylO4c) > [@](#): > > Former Gun Trace Task Force Sgt. Wayne Jenkins, perhaps the most corrupt officer uncovered in Baltimore Police Department history, was sentenced Thursday to 25 years in federal prison for his role in a stunning range of crimes. > [@](#): > > Jenkins had operated his two plainclothes drug squads “like a criminal gang.” His plea agreement includes admissions that he stole looted drugs during the April 2015 riots and spearheaded robberies that netted the officers up to tens of thousands of dollars at a time. He was recorded on a wiretap telling officers in one of those robberies to pretend like he was the U.S. attorney while interrogating a man who they believed had drugs and money they could steal. Here is the kicker: > [@](#): > > In addition to the sweeping racketeering charge, Jenkins faced additional charges of civil rights violations for a 2010 incident in which he and two other officers drove up suddenly on two men, who said they believed they were being robbed and fled. While driving away, the men got into an accident that killed 87-year-old Elbert Davis, and police planted drugs in their car. Both men went to federal prison. ---
**Author:** ![Orwell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/dfb087/32.png) [@Orwell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orwell)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2018, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13859 "2018-06-08T01:02:30Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > I’m saying most people wouldn’t. There is, ultimately, absolutely no fucking point whatsoever talking about what people should or shouldn’t do if it’s not going to change. Well, we are hoping that by talking about it, something might just change. Of course, having videos seems to be an important part of starting the conversation. If a picture is worth a thousand words, a video is worth a lot more. But, hopefully the us vs. them attitude and the blue curtain become less pronounced. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2018, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13860 "2018-06-08T04:39:31Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > We should be respectful to [Baltimore’s Finest](https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/leader-of-baltimore-police-gun-trace-task-force-sentenced-to-25-years-in-prison/ar-AAylO4c) > Here is the kicker: 25 years doesn’t seem like enough time IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2018, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13861 "2018-06-08T13:21:06Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > I’m saying most people wouldn’t. There is, ultimately, absolutely no fucking point whatsoever talking about what people should or shouldn’t do if it’s not going to change. How the hell do you think change starts? Come on, man. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=692) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=694)