# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 695
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2018, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13882 "2018-06-08T18:07:12Z")
What factor sunscreen? Also, where is his badge? I don’t want you springing a surprise “AHA! He wasn’t really a cop!” on me. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2018, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13883 "2018-06-08T18:10:05Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > What factor sunscreen? Also, where is his badge? I don’t want you springing a surprise “AHA! He wasn’t really a cop!” on me. Generic SPF 18 sunscreen, and the badge is hanging off his left pierced nipple. edited to add: And _please_ don’t ask how his partner plans on holding the coffee, the napkins _and_ the donuts. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2018, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13884 "2018-06-08T18:17:39Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Generic SPF 18 sunscreen, Lotion or spray on? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2018, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13885 "2018-06-08T18:18:58Z")
Lotion-the spray-on was a $1.37 more an ounce. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2018, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13886 "2018-06-08T18:19:52Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > I’m not so much against any of those things (with one exception) as I am sceptical that you can change human nature so much that you can achieve those things, without such strong military style discipline that it would be close to brainwashing. It would perhaps be _possible_ to only employ the best and brightest as police officers, or to provide years of intensive training, but it would be hugely expensive and possibly detrimental in the long run. We should be hiring the best and the brightest. Why are we putting the safety of our communities in the hands of people who are poorly equipped for the job. I don’t see it as all that expensive, and I am willing to pay the taxes to pay for it. As far as detrimental, what are you worried about happening if our police force is well screened, trained, and equipped? As for requiring some sort of “military style discipline”, I don’t think we need to go nearly that far. For instance, when I hire someone to work with dogs, I screen them a bit to make sure that they are comfortable with dogs. I wouldn’t want to hire someone afraid of dogs. I train them that if a dog misbehaves, you don’t punch it. There are ways of controlling a dog that do not involve harming them, even when you are angry with them. And this is important, dogs do bite from time to time, and while the natural reaction to something biting you is to hurt it right back, somehow, I’ve managed to get a bunch of people that I hired off of craigslist and indeed, and who I am paying not all that high a wage, to not strike a dog who has bitten them. For some reason, you don’t think that we can do as well or better with cops. > [@](#): > > As for “we need to make officers hold each other accountable”, _how?_ It doesn’t happen, for the most part, in other workplaces, and that’s without including the dynamic of protecting each other’s lives. Whistleblowers almost never get looked on well either by their colleagues or superiors, because they are considered untrustworthy. It happens in many workplaces. It happens in mine, it happens in manson1972’s. If it doesn’t happen in yours, you may want to consider how much of it is your attitude that people shouldn’t be reported for breaking laws or policies as to why it doesn’t. The idea that you have that someone reporting violations of the law or of someone’s civil rights is looked upon as less trustworthy than someone who is breaking the law or violating someone’s civil rights is backwards from any business that is not run and staffed by stupid, selfish, violent people. If you are covering for your co-workers in this, you are part of the problem. Don’t brag that your actions exacerbate the problem, change your actions to help to fix it. > [@](#): > > As for the one I actually disagree with, it’s obviously the claim that cops are shooting people because they are twitchy and scared. That is already illegal and already punished when it happens. But cops shooting someone who appears to be a threat to them? That’s fine. Same as it would be for anyone else. You contradict yourself. You first say that it is illegal and punished when a cop is twitchy and scared, but then you say that it is fine if they are twitchy and scared and perceives a threat to them. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2018, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13887 "2018-06-08T18:21:06Z")
Hey, where did **MikeF** go? I thought he wanted to know the details when it came to specific situations? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2018, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13888 "2018-06-08T18:22:13Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Lotion-the spray-on was a $1.37 more an ounce. Lotion? LOTION??? Then absolutely not, he cannot punch a suspect in the face. What kind of dystopian nightmare do you think we are living in?? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2018, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13889 "2018-06-08T18:23:12Z")
I should have mentioned trolling as another contributing factor. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2018, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13890 "2018-06-08T18:23:20Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Lotion? LOTION??? Then absolutely not, he cannot punch a suspect in the face. What kind of dystopian nightmare do you think we are living in?? Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2018, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13891 "2018-06-08T18:26:49Z")
That whole sequence totally fucking rocked! ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2018, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13892 "2018-06-08T18:31:27Z")
Thanks to Czarcasm for playing along! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2018, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13893 "2018-06-08T18:33:49Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Thanks to Czarcasm for playing along! > > 🙂 I’m just great at multi-tasking. I can do quickwit and halfwit at the same time. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2018, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13894 "2018-06-08T22:59:08Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > We should be hiring the best and the brightest. Why are we putting the safety of our communities in the hands of people who are poorly equipped for the job. > > I don’t see it as all that expensive, and I am willing to pay the taxes to pay for it. As far as detrimental, what are you worried about happening if our police force is well screened, trained, and equipped? There are only so many “best and brightest” to go round, and a job that mostly requires identifying and restraining not particularly bright criminals, stopping bad drivers, and breaking down doors does not require them. Yes, we need a few percent of top people both in charge and as detectives, but not a whole load of people who will get bored and frustrated at the boring, not particularly challenging work that is routine policing. Let the best and brightest be doctors, teachers, politicians, business leaders, scientists, or any other job that requires a great deal of intelligence and independent thought. > [@](#): > > As for requiring some sort of “military style discipline”, I don’t think we need to go nearly that far. For instance, when I hire someone to work with dogs, I screen them a bit to make sure that they are comfortable with dogs. I wouldn’t want to hire someone afraid of dogs. I train them that if a dog misbehaves, you don’t punch it. There are ways of controlling a dog that do not involve harming them, even when you are angry with them. And this is important, dogs do bite from time to time, and while the natural reaction to something biting you is to hurt it right back, somehow, I’ve managed to get a bunch of people that I hired off of craigslist and indeed, and who I am paying not all that high a wage, to not strike a dog who has bitten them. When you get dogs with guns, or high on meth or whatever, that will be relevant. Cops are already screened to the level you claim to want - but being almost entirely good enough isn’t actually good enough. You want perfection. > [@](#): > > It happens in many workplaces. It happens in mine, it happens in manson1972’s. If it doesn’t happen in yours, you may want to consider how much of it is your attitude that people shouldn’t be reported for breaking laws or policies as to why it doesn’t. > > The idea that you have that someone reporting violations of the law or of someone’s civil rights is looked upon as less trustworthy than someone who is breaking the law or violating someone’s civil rights is backwards from any business that is not run and staffed by stupid, selfish, violent people. > > If you are covering for your co-workers in this, you are part of the problem. Don’t brag that your actions exacerbate the problem, change your actions to help to fix it. Most workplaces wouldn’t function at all if they followed all the procedures to the letter. It just doesn’t happen, and I don’t believe that you don’t know that. But then, I’ve yet to see a successful business not run by selfish people, selfless people wouldn’t do that. People are inherently, if not entirely selfish, then empathetic only to a relatively small group. Once again, you are ignoring human nature, rather than being prepared to work with it to achieve your aims. > [@](#): > > You contradict yourself. You first say that it is illegal and punished when a cop is twitchy and scared, but then you say that it is fine if they are twitchy and scared and perceives a threat to them. No, I don’t. If they kill someone because they are twitchy and scared, it’s a crime. If they kill someone because they percieve a threat from them, and that perception is reasonable, then it’s fine. Just as it would be for anyone else. Claiming that, for example, someone you know or reasonably believe to be armed is reaching for their weapon is a threat. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2018, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13895 "2018-06-08T23:00:55Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Yes, that would be wrong. See? Easy question, easy answer. Of course it’s fucking allowed for _anyone_, not just a cop, to punch someone who’s threatening them with a gun or a knife. What is wrong with you? Would you let yourself be shot or stabbed rather than defend yourself? You are obviously trolling here, there’s no way you actually believe that. No-one does. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2018, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13896 "2018-06-08T23:03:31Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I’m just great at multi-tasking. I can do quickwit and halfwit at the same time. Well, you can do half-right. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2018, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13897 "2018-06-08T23:04:26Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Of course it’s fucking allowed for _anyone_, not just a cop, to punch someone who’s threatening them with a gun or a knife. What is wrong with you? Would you let yourself be shot or stabbed rather than defend yourself? > > You are obviously trolling here, there’s no way you actually believe that. No-one does. How sad it must be to go through life thinking that it is impossible for anyone to have beliefs that differ from yours. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2018, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13898 "2018-06-08T23:17:46Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > How sad it must be to go through life thinking that it is impossible for anyone to have beliefs that differ from yours. I don’t believe that anyone thinks it’s wrong to punch someone who’s about to shoot them. I could understand, just about, someone saying they wouldn’t kill to save their own life, but saying it’s wrong to use any force at all? No. Note that he didn’t say he’d made a personal choice to avoid any use of force, for religious reasons or whatever, he said outright it was wrong. The only reasonable thing to think of that is that he’s trolling. ETA I know many people have different beliefs to me. One of the reasons I read this forum is to expose myself to those different beliefs, and challenge my own. It’s extremely rare I’ll outright say I don’t believe what someone claims are their beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2018, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13899 "2018-06-08T23:39:30Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > I don’t believe that anyone thinks it’s wrong to punch someone who’s about to shoot them. {…} It’s, mostly, wrong 'cause the worse thing to bring to a gun fight isn’t a knife is your fists. CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2018, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13900 "2018-06-08T23:45:29Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > I don’t believe that anyone thinks it’s wrong to punch someone who’s about to shoot them. I could understand, just about, someone saying they wouldn’t kill to save their own life, but saying it’s wrong to use any force at all? No. That’s strange. I don’t remember saying that it is wrong to use any force at all. Can you please be so kind to point out the post where I said that cops are wrong to use any force at all? Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2018, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13901 "2018-06-08T23:48:14Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Of course it’s fucking allowed for _anyone_, not just a cop, to punch someone who’s threatening them with a gun or a knife. What is wrong with you? Would you let yourself be shot or stabbed rather than defend yourself? > > You are obviously trolling here, there’s no way you actually believe that. No-one does. There are two recent videos that have been posted that show cops punching someone who is not threatening them with a gun or a knife. And videos of cops kicking people who weren’t threatening them with a gun or a knife. And videos of cops straight up shooting people who weren’t threatening them with a gun or a knife. Edited to add: And in these videos, there are other cops who apparently see no problem with it. I, for one, would like things to change BEFORE somebody gets killed and not afterward saying “Well, the cop got put on paid administrative leave, what’s the problem?” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=694) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=696)