# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 698
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2018, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13942 "2018-06-13T15:40:35Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I want law enforcement as accountable for their actions in the US as in other countries that don’t have the problem of routine mistreatment, especially for minorities. That probably doesn’t require military discipline, since those other countries don’t require it, but it’s one possibility. No you don’t, you want an almost perfect police force that operates in a way incompatible with human nature, but are unwilling or unable to explain how that would be achieved, or what negative consequences you are prepared to accept to get there. > [@](#): > > As far as military worldview, with calm respect, you don’t appear to understand it. Stop lying about respect, if you had the slightest amount of respect you wouldn’t patronise me. I understand it, it’s extremely well documented and not difficult to find out about. This issue (not problem, it’s necessary for a military to function) has been recognised since antiquity, with the prohibition on bringing troops into Rome well before Imperial times. Your attempts to come up with solutions to these problems when you have little understanding of history or psychology will fail. > [@](#): > > I never had any problem with appropriate consequences for Clinton. Retraining, temporary loss of access, and if there was a trend that these measures were not fixing her problem, than the loss of her job, are all appropriate consequences (and are in fact usually the consequences) for careless mishandling of classified and controlled information. Appropriate consequences would be criminal prosecution, if it actually was mishandled. > [@](#): > > With calm respect, your memory of my posts is so consistently incorrect that I’d recommend you stop trying. So, you agree that _if_ Clinton, or anyone else, intentionally or negligently mishandles classified information, they should be prosecuted? Note, of course, that a first offence is very rarely negligent, but when one is informed of the issue a later one usually is. If you don’t agree with that, why do you have a different standard for the police? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2018, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13943 "2018-06-13T15:42:11Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Sure, I’m in favor of Clinton being punished. Who do you think should render that punishment? And what form should that punishment take? The federal justice system, or that of DC, and the form prescribed in law. Assuming that she actually did anything illegal, which hasn’t been proven yet. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2018, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13944 "2018-06-13T15:45:02Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > This perfectly illustrates your sense of proportion on this whole issue. You seem to be one of those people who think that a rain shower is the same as a hurricane. I’m the one with a sense of proportion, who’s not getting absurdly upset about people not reporting minor transgressions. You, and several others, think the police shoudl be constantly on the lookout for any slight breach of protocol and report it, regardless of any negative consequences for policing as a whole. But you’re unwilling to apply that standard to other people, because you’re a hypocrite. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2018, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13945 "2018-06-13T16:13:14Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No you don’t, you want an almost perfect police force that operates in a way incompatible with human nature, but are unwilling or unable to explain how that would be achieved, or what negative consequences you are prepared to accept to get there. > > Stop lying about respect, if you had the slightest amount of respect you wouldn’t patronise me. I understand it, it’s extremely well documented and not difficult to find out about. This issue (not problem, it’s necessary for a military to function) has been recognised since antiquity, with the prohibition on bringing troops into Rome well before Imperial times. > > Your attempts to come up with solutions to these problems when you have little understanding of history or psychology will fail. > > Appropriate consequences would be criminal prosecution, if it actually was mishandled. > > So, you agree that _if_ Clinton, or anyone else, intentionally or negligently mishandles classified information, they should be prosecuted? Note, of course, that a first offence is very rarely negligent, but when one is informed of the issue a later one usually is. > > If you don’t agree with that, why do you have a different standard for the police? I think you’re getting upset, so I’m gonna step back. It’s okay. You’re getting me and my posts wrong, consistently, but it’s okay. There’s nothing to fear here. No one’s gonna hurt you. ---
**Author:** ![SaneBill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e68b1a/32.png) [@SaneBill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SaneBill)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2018, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13946 "2018-06-13T16:47:47Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > I’m the one with a sense of proportion, Shooting at kids who play loud music is OK. If only 12 % of people killed by cops are innocent it OK. Kicking a handcuffed suspect to the head is OK. Reporting about crimes is fascism and is mostly based on selfishness. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2018, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13947 "2018-06-13T18:00:48Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > The federal justice system, or that of DC, and the form prescribed in law. Assuming that she actually did anything illegal, which hasn’t been proven yet. Sure, I’d be for that. Why wouldn’t I? It’s because of people who don’t take regulations and laws seriously that the server was set up in the first place. And because nobody said anything about it to anyone. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2018, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13948 "2018-06-13T18:03:24Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No you don’t, you want an almost perfect police force that operates in a way incompatible with human nature, but are unwilling or unable to explain how that would be achieved, or what negative consequences you are prepared to accept to get there. Almost perfect? Of course not. One that strives to improve? Of course, why wouldn’t EVERYONE want that? Here’s a start: “Hey guys, unless you positively identify a gun and it’s pointed in your direction or the direction of another person, DON’T FUCKING SHOOT THE GUY!” Here’s another one: “Hey guys, when someone is in handcuffs, DON’T FUCKING KICK THEM IN THE FACE OR PUNCH THEM!” And finally: “If anyone sees that, LET SOMEONE KNOW!!” Doesn’t really seem that difficult to me. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2018, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13949 "2018-06-13T18:03:40Z")
Steophan, what you are perceiving is not a sense of proportion, but rather your head leaning to one side due to an ereaserhed-foetus gestating in your cerebral cortex. You should seek help before your brain explodes into its own planet. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2018, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13950 "2018-06-13T18:19:05Z")
This one was in the Trump Clusterfuck thread [After Inmate With Schizophrenia Dies In Shower, Fla. Prosecutor Finds No Wrongdoing](https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/03/19/520743255/after-schizophrenic-inmate-dies-in-a-shower-florida-prosecutor-finds-no-wrongdoi) Even though > [@](#): > > two corrections officers, Cornelius Thompson and Roland Clark, forced Rainey into an enclosed, locked shower stall and that the water had been cranked as high as 180 degrees from a neighboring room, where the heat controls were. … _Rainey screamed in terror and begged to be let out for more than an hour until he collapsed and died_, witnesses told the Herald. Some of the officers taunted and laughed at him, some inmates who were in the unit at the time of his death said." ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2018, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13951 "2018-06-13T22:21:37Z")
> [@SaneBill](#): > > Shooting at kids who play loud music is OK. > If only 12 % of people killed by cops are innocent it OK. > Kicking a handcuffed suspect to the head is OK. > Reporting about crimes is fascism and is mostly based on selfishness. > > :rolleyes: I’ve said none of those things, except that almost all human behaviour is ultimately selfish. Whether or not someone is playing loud music is irrelevant to whether it’s OK to shoot them, as is whether they are innocent. The _only_ thing that matters is the state of mind of the shooter. Kicking a handcuffed suspect in the head is not OK. But the linked video is not “police brutality”, it is a minor crime. Expecting people to look out for and report every slight misstep by their neighbours or colleagues is literally what authoritarian governments do, and is what is being advocated here. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2018, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13952 "2018-06-13T22:23:43Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Here’s a start: “Hey guys, unless you positively identify a gun and it’s pointed in your direction or the direction of another person, DON’T FUCKING SHOOT THE GUY!” Why on earth would anyone support such a ridiculous standard? Why do you expect cops to hold to such an absurdly higher standard than the general public? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2018, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13953 "2018-06-13T22:27:43Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I think you’re getting upset, so I’m gonna step back. It’s okay. You’re getting me and my posts wrong, consistently, but it’s okay. There’s nothing to fear here. No one’s gonna hurt you. Upset? No. A mixture of frustration and amusement at your stupidity, and that of others, mixed with some concern for what might happen in the unlikely event that your views ever prevailed in the real world. But hey, keep claiming that I’m getting your posts wrong without ever clarifying them, and patronising and mocking me. I’m sure it’s easier for you than questioning and defending your beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2018, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13954 "2018-06-13T22:29:44Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Upset? No. > > A mixture of frustration and amusement at your stupidity, and that of others, mixed with some concern for what might happen in the unlikely event that your views ever prevailed in the real world. > > But hey, keep claiming that I’m getting your posts wrong without ever clarifying them, and patronising and mocking me. I’m sure it’s easier for you than questioning and defending your beliefs. With calm respect and friendship, I’m grateful that the vast majority of people wouldn’t praise actions that resulted in a dead unarmed child and a murder conviction, and praise that murderer as the type of person they’d want to live around them. All love and best wishes. Remember, there’s nothing to fear from kids playing loud music. Kids being kids aren’t dangerous to anyone, and killing them is wrong, and killing them shouldn’t be admired. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2018, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13955 "2018-06-13T22:30:15Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Why on earth would anyone support such a ridiculous standard? Why do you expect cops to hold to such an absurdly higher standard than the general public? Because they have sworn an oath to serve and protect. The safety of police officers is secondary to that of the public. If they are not willing to lay down their lives in service to community, they should turn their badges. ---
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2018, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13956 "2018-06-13T23:06:02Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Why on earth would anyone support such a ridiculous standard? Why do you expect cops to hold to such an absurdly higher standard than the general public? This is possibly the stupidest thing you’ve posted in the whole goddamn thread. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2018, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13957 "2018-06-13T23:13:54Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Because they have sworn an oath to serve and protect. [IACP](http://www.theiacp.org/Portals/0/documents/pdfs/Communications/IACP_Oath_of_Honor_En_8.5x11_Web.pdf) On my honor, I will never betray my badge, my integrity, my character or the public trust. I will always have the courage to hold myself and others accountable for our actions. I will always uphold the Constitution, my community, and the agency I serve. “Protect”? Nope, not in there. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2018, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13958 "2018-06-13T23:16:39Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > The safety of police officers is secondary to that of the public. Nope. That’s factually wrong, the police have as much right to defend themselves as anyone else. Maybe you think it _should_ be the case, but it isn’t. It’s also somewhat incoherent, as the police are members of the public, and should be considered as such. Treating them as an “other”, having an us-vs-them mentality from either side, is what causes a lot of these problems. Also, expecting cops to be better people than the rest of us won’t work. They’re not, they’re just people. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2018, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13959 "2018-06-13T23:22:58Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Kids being kids aren’t dangerous to anyone, and killing them is wrong, and killing them shouldn’t be admired. However, killing “kids” who reasonably appear to be threats is not wrong. If these “kids” threaten people with a shotgun, or attack them and repeatedly bash their head into the ground, or attempt to draw a gun on a cop, it’s not “kids being kids”. It’s not necessarily admirable, but I’ve never claimed it is. But defending yourself from a credible threat is not wrong. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2018, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13960 "2018-06-13T23:28:53Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > However, killing “kids” who reasonably appear to be threats is not wrong. If these “kids” threaten people with a shotgun, or attack them and repeatedly bash their head into the ground, or attempt to draw a gun on a cop, it’s not “kids being kids”. > > It’s not necessarily admirable, but I’ve never claimed it is. But defending yourself from a credible threat is not wrong. With calm respect and love, you said the following about Dunn: that he is someone “[who will stand up to bullies and defend themselves against attack](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=20994930&postcount=13691)”, and “[the sort of people normal people want around them](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=20724340&postcount=12437)”. With calm respect, there was no threat to Dunn, as determined by a jury in a court of law, and Dunn had no legitimate reason to kill Davis and shoot at those fleeing children. Thankfully, this child-killer is in jail, where he can’t be around decent people, and won’t have the opportunity to kill any more black children. Again, with calm respect, I’m very thankful that virtually no one else among us humans (aside from the white supremacist troglodytes who praised Dunn to the heavens) believes this child killer is someone “who will stand up to bullies” and the sort of person “normal people want around them”. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2018, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13961 "2018-06-13T23:43:24Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > [IACP](http://www.theiacp.org/Portals/0/documents/pdfs/Communications/IACP_Oath_of_Honor_En_8.5x11_Web.pdf) > On my honor, I will never betray my badge, my integrity, my character or the public trust. I will always have the courage to hold myself and others accountable for our actions. I will always uphold the Constitution, my community, and the agency I serve. > “Protect”? Nope, not in there. That’s true, but it’s not the most interesting part. \*\*“I will always have the courage to hold myself and others accountable for our actions.” \*\* Any cop who doesn’t turn in another cop who commits a crime has violated his oath. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=697) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=699)