# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 699
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2018, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13962 "2018-06-13T23:47:09Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > That’s true, but it’s not the most interesting part. > > \*\*“I will always have the courage to hold myself and others accountable for our actions.” > \*\* > > Any cop who doesn’t turn in another cop who commits a crime has violated his oath. Right. The problem is among some (but not all) American police departments who put the “blue wall” culture as a higher value than honesty, integrity, and the philosophy of “serve and protect”. PDs in many other countries don’t appear to have this problem, so we know it’s not an impossible one to overcome, and not based on some immutable fact of human nature. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2018, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13963 "2018-06-13T23:56:17Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Why on earth would anyone support such a ridiculous standard? Why do you expect cops to hold to such an absurdly higher standard than the general public? Ridiculous? Don’t shoot a guy unless you are sure he has a gun and is pointing it at someone is ridiculous? You’ve got to be kidding me. Cops SHOULD be held to a higher standard. That’s the result of the greater authority we give them. Really, this is basic elementary school stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2018, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13964 "2018-06-14T00:53:36Z")
> [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > This is possibly the stupidest thing you’ve posted in the whole goddamn thread. …to date. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2018, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13965 "2018-06-14T01:35:16Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Ridiculous? Don’t shoot a guy unless you are sure he has a gun and is pointing it at someone is ridiculous? You’ve got to be kidding me. Yes, it’s obviously ridiculous. On many levels. Not least is the idea that a gun is the only lethal weapon, but more important is your fundamental misunderstanding of what counts as a credible threat. No-one should have to wait until a weapon is drawn to defend themselves, and nor should they be punished for mistaking what an item is, if it’s a mistake that a reasonabel person would make. To put it very simply, by the time someone has a gun pointed at you and you’ve carefully checked that it is a gun and not, for example, a replica modified to look like a real gun, you’ve been shot and it’s too late. Your standard effectively removes the right to self defence, and is therefore utterly ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2018, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13966 "2018-06-14T01:49:17Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > With calm respect and love, you said the following about Dunn: that he is someone “[who will stand up to bullies and defend themselves against attack](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=20994930&postcount=13691)”, and “[the sort of people normal people want around them](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=20724340&postcount=12437)”. With calm respect, there was no threat to Dunn, as determined by a jury in a court of law, and Dunn had no legitimate reason to kill Davis and shoot at those fleeing children. Thankfully, this child-killer is in jail, where he can’t be around decent people, and won’t have the opportunity to kill any more black children. > > Again, with calm respect, I’m very thankful that virtually no one else among us humans (aside from the white supremacist troglodytes who praised Dunn to the heavens) believes this child killer is someone “who will stand up to bullies” and the sort of person “normal people want around them”. That jury was presumably full of people like you and **manson** who don’t believe in the concept of self defence. I’ve repeatedly said that Dunn is rightfully in jail for shooting at the car as it drove away, but for killing the guy who threatened him? No, obviously not. But then, you’ve made it clear in the past that he was wrong to tell them to turn the music down. You’ve made it clear that you’re in favour of antisocial, aggressive behaviour. You’ve defended Trayvon Martin trespassing and then attacking George Zimmerman, and many other people behaving in a demonstrably criminal fashion - and not a trivial one, either. It really seems like you think Dunn should have let himself be shot, or Zimmerman let himself be beaten, and I find that incomprehensible. Oh, and this case doesn’t even fall foul of **manson** ’s incredibly high standard - Dunn saw a gun aimed at him. And yet you still say he was in the wrong? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2018, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13967 "2018-06-14T01:51:16Z")
I would hope a reasonable person would be able to tell that “He pull a gun and pointed it at me” is different then “He had a gun in his waistband and looked like he was going to pull it” Sorry, I’m not one for personal attacks during discussions of a topic, but you are a moron. I’m not going to discuss this topic with you anymore, since you clearly have some mental issues that need looked at, nor do you live in the US, so your opinion on US police procedures is suspect at best, retarded at worst. Go enjoy your life and remain frightened by kids playing loud music or whatever you do. Take care. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2018, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13968 "2018-06-14T02:12:22Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > That jury was presumably full of people like you and **manson** who don’t believe in the concept of self defence. I’ve repeatedly said that Dunn is rightfully in jail for shooting at the car as it drove away, but for killing the guy who threatened him? No, obviously not. > > But then, you’ve made it clear in the past that he was wrong to tell them to turn the music down. You’ve made it clear that you’re in favour of antisocial, aggressive behaviour. You’ve defended Trayvon Martin trespassing and then attacking George Zimmerman, and many other people behaving in a demonstrably criminal fashion - and not a trivial one, either. It really seems like you think Dunn should have let himself be shot, or Zimmerman let himself be beaten, and I find that incomprehensible. > > Oh, and this case doesn’t even fall foul of **manson** ’s incredibly high standard - Dunn saw a gun aimed at him. And yet you still say he was in the wrong? There have been too many cases of NO gun. Unarmed people. Gunned down by police - and recorded in video. Some, with their back turned or laying on the ground. As for "Mr Loud Music, I don’t believe he was threatened. I think he is a liar. As for Zimmerman, fuck him. He is a no good piece of shit too, who literally got away with murder. He was getting into violent confrontations before he killed someone, and he’s been getting in them SINCE then too. And as far as Trayvon Martin trespassing, that is an outright lie. Martin was walking down the street when Scumbag stalked him, started shit, and killed him. Zimmernamn deserves to be gunned down himself. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2018, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13969 "2018-06-14T02:14:21Z")
> [@SaneBill](#): > > Shooting at kids who play loud music is OK. > If only 12 % of people killed by cops are innocent it OK. > Kicking a handcuffed suspect to the head is OK. > Reporting about crimes is fascism and is mostly based on selfishness. > > :rolleyes: Yes. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2018, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13970 "2018-06-14T02:31:13Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Yes, it’s obviously ridiculous. On many levels. Not least is the idea that a gun is the only lethal weapon, but more important is your fundamental misunderstanding of what counts as a credible threat. No-one should have to wait until a weapon is drawn to defend themselves, and nor should they be punished for mistaking what an item is, if it’s a mistake that a reasonabel person would make. > > To put it very simply, by the time someone has a gun pointed at you and you’ve carefully checked that it is a gun and not, for example, a replica modified to look like a real gun, you’ve been shot and it’s too late. Your standard effectively removes the right to self defence, and is therefore utterly ridiculous. …just a reminder that Steophan doesn’t live in a state that has “stand-your-ground” laws. Steophan doesn’t live in a country that allows you to shoot a 'credible threat" in self-defense. Steophan doesn’t even live in a country that allows you to own a handgun except in extraordinary circumstances. Steophan idolizes the United States. He fetishizes it. But he doesn’t actually live there. Its extraordinary to watch him accuse everyone else of having a “fundamental misunderstanding of what counts as a credible threat” when he doesn’t even understand that what is and isn’t “reasonable” can differ from country to country, and in the case of the United States, from state to state. ---
**Author:** ![SaneBill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e68b1a/32.png) [@SaneBill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SaneBill)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2018, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13971 "2018-06-14T08:04:20Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > I’ve said none of those things, except that almost all human behaviour is ultimately selfish. I checked out the one that has bothered me most ( if 12 % of killed are innocent it’s OK ) and you are right that you didn’t say innocent, it was unarmed: > [@Steophan](#): > > Although if you read the article someone helpfully posted earlier, you’ll find that the vast majority of police killings are of armed people - something like 88% if I remember rightly. That does not suggest a systemic problem where the police are wantonly or fearfully killing vast amounts of innocent, unarmed people. Are you out of your mind ?! 12 % is one out of eight !! And that is tolerable in your world. You are a sick person. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2018, 9:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13972 "2018-06-14T09:19:54Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > That jury was presumably full of people like you and **manson** who don’t believe in the concept of self defence. I’ve repeatedly said that Dunn is rightfully in jail for shooting at the car as it drove away, but for killing the guy who threatened him? No, obviously not. > > But then, you’ve made it clear in the past that he was wrong to tell them to turn the music down. You’ve made it clear that you’re in favour of antisocial, aggressive behaviour. You’ve defended Trayvon Martin trespassing and then attacking George Zimmerman, and many other people behaving in a demonstrably criminal fashion - and not a trivial one, either. It really seems like you think Dunn should have let himself be shot, or Zimmerman let himself be beaten, and I find that incomprehensible. > > Oh, and this case doesn’t even fall foul of **manson** ’s incredibly high standard - Dunn saw a gun aimed at him. And yet you still say he was in the wrong? With calm respect, you’ve again misstated many of my views – I must again recommend that you not try and say what I’ve said before without cites, because you always get it wrong. The jury did not believe the child-killer Dunn saw a gun aimed at him, and neither do I. There’s no evidence any other gun was present aside from the child-killer’s testimony (much of which was quite clearly dishonest). Thankfully, the jury didn’t believe him, and the child-killer you repeatedly praised is behind bars. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2018, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13973 "2018-06-14T11:30:08Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > There have been too many cases of NO gun. Unarmed people. Gunned down by police - and recorded in video. Some, with their back turned or laying on the ground. But . . . but . . he \*scairt \*me! /SteophanSpeak ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2018, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13974 "2018-06-14T12:57:03Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > And as far as Trayvon Martin trespassing, that is an outright lie. Martin was walking down the street when Scumbag stalked him, started shit, and killed him. Zimmernamn deserves to be gunned down himself. None of those things are true. Yes, they are the things reported in the press before the trial, but they were comprehensively shown to be false during the investigation and trial. Most relevantly, the whole incident took place on private property, so Zimmerman was fully entitled to ask Martin what he was doing there. Martin had the right to be on the private road, as he was travelling to the house he was visiting, but not on the other private properties he trespassed on. Also important is that all the evidence shows that Martin initiated the violence. That Zimmerman is a bit of a cunt is irrelevant, he has the same right to self defence as anyone else. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2018, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13975 "2018-06-14T13:00:17Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > With calm respect, you’ve again misstated many of my views – I must again recommend that you not try and say what I’ve said before without cites, because you always get it wrong. A claim you repeatedly make without providing cites… More hypocrisy. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2018, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13976 "2018-06-14T15:09:48Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > A claim you repeatedly make without providing cites… More hypocrisy. Apologies, you may have forgotten: [https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=835614](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=835614) With calm respect, you have said multiple additional untrue things about me without a cite (just a couple more examples): > [@Steophan](#): > > But then, you’ve made it clear in the past that he was wrong to tell them to turn the music down. You’ve made it clear that you’re in favour of antisocial, aggressive behaviour. You’ve defended Trayvon Martin trespassing and then attacking George Zimmerman, and many other people behaving in a demonstrably criminal fashion - and not a trivial one, either. It really seems like you think Dunn should have let himself be shot, or Zimmerman let himself be beaten, and I find that incomprehensible. > [@Steophan](#): > > So, were you in favour of Clinton being punished? I seem to recall you weren’t, correct me if I’m wrong. These things you say about me are uncited and false, and yet you continue. But it’s okay. I forgive you for repeated untruths about me, since I understand this is driven by terror… The kind of terror that leads you to repeatedly praise the actions of a child killer that resulted in a dead unarmed child and a murder conviction. I’ll just kindly suggest again that it’s not reasonable to repeatedly tell uncited untruths about me, and not reasonable to praise those unarmed child-killing actions as those of someone “[who will stand up to bullies and defend themselves against attack](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=20994930&postcount=13691)”, and “[the sort of people normal people want around them](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=20724340&postcount=12437)”. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2018, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13977 "2018-06-14T15:35:36Z")
I am afraid this has become the **Steophan** thread. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2018, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13978 "2018-06-14T15:45:27Z")
In Chicago [police break in and terrorize family in wrong address raid.](http://wgntv.com/2018/06/13/top-cop-responds-after-police-raid-wrong-home-thats-not-a-good-thing/) The door is damaged, they ransacked the house and they handcuffed the children. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2018, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13979 "2018-06-14T15:48:32Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > I am afraid this has become the **Steophan** thread. If the police stop terrorizing the citizens, and we no longer have any of that to talk about, then I will take, as an unhappy consolation, that this thread become Steophan’s playground. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > In Chicago [police break in and terrorize family in wrong address raid.](http://wgntv.com/2018/06/13/top-cop-responds-after-police-raid-wrong-home-thats-not-a-good-thing/) > The door is damaged, they ransacked the house and they handcuffed the children. Oops, no danger of that. ---
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2018, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13980 "2018-06-14T16:29:52Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Most relevantly, the whole incident took place on private property, so Zimmerman was fully entitled to ask Martin what he was doing there. Martin had the right to be on the private road, as he was travelling to the house he was visiting, but not on the other private properties he trespassed on. Was it Zimmerman’s private property that Martin was on? Because if it wasn’t, why did he care and/or challenge Martin? And how did he know that Martin was trespassing? He could well have had permission to be there. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2018, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13981 "2018-06-14T17:43:32Z")
> [@Folacin](#): > > Was it Zimmerman’s private property that Martin was on? Because if it wasn’t, why did he care and/or challenge Martin? And how did he know that Martin was trespassing? He could well have had permission to be there. It was a private community. Good neighbours look our for each other and their property. He asked Martin if he had a right to be there, at which point Martin ran off, then returned and attacked Zimmerman. Zimmerman had called the police, but unfortunately they didn’t arrive before he was attacked. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=698) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=700)