# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 700
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2018, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13982 "2018-06-14T19:21:50Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Zimmerman had called the police, but unfortunately they didn’t arrive before he was attacked. Dear god, I hope he’s okay! ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2018, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13983 "2018-06-14T19:22:01Z")
> [@Folacin](#): > > Was it Zimmerman’s private property that Martin was on? Because if it wasn’t, why did he care and/or challenge Martin? Zimmerman was the neighborhood watch. The neighborhood had had a number of break-ins and at least one shooting in the past few months. So the neighborhood had a meeting and asked for volunteers, and Zimmerman was the only one who volunteered. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2018, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13984 "2018-06-14T19:24:15Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > I > > Zimmerman had called the police, but unfortunately they didn’t arrive before he was attacked. So says Zimmerman. All we have his version of the confrontation. We could ask Martin if he saw it differently, if weren’t so dead. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2018, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13985 "2018-06-14T19:24:29Z")
Gosh! Someone should start a thread about this “Zimmerman” thing! ---
**Author:** ![Orwell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/dfb087/32.png) [@Orwell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orwell)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2018, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13986 "2018-06-14T19:37:44Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Gosh! Someone should start a thread about this “Zimmerman” thing! What a novel idea!! Nobody involved was in law-enforcement, so it doesn’t even fit this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2018, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13987 "2018-06-14T20:24:34Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > So says Zimmerman. All we have his version of the confrontation. We could ask Martin if he saw it differently, if weren’t so dead. No, it isn’t. But even if it were, it would be sufficient, as the state needs to prove he was not acting in self defence. If he claimed he was, and there’s no other evidence, the case would need to be thrown out, as it’s impossible to prove guilt. Fortunately, however, we have witness testimony of Martin’s description of his movements and actions, and they are consistent with Zimmerman’s claim. None of this means that Zimmerman proved his innocence. But in case you need reminding, that’s not necessary, and the burden of proof is on the state. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2018, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13988 "2018-06-14T20:26:57Z")
> [@Orwell](#): > > What a novel idea!! Nobody involved was in law-enforcement, so it doesn’t even fit this thread. Very little here is posted that fits the thread. It’s supposed to be about controversial encounters, but what is actually happening is a circle-jerk about how terrible all cops are, and a bunch of insults and dismissal towards anyone who actually attempts to discuss the controversy. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2018, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13989 "2018-06-14T20:29:39Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Very little here is posted that fits the thread. It’s supposed to be about controversial encounters, but what is actually happening is a circle-jerk about how terrible all cops are, and a bunch of insults and dismissal towards anyone who actually attempts to discuss the controversy. Spin it any way you want-The Zimmerman crap doesn’t belong in this thread, and you fucking know it. ---
**Author:** ![Crazy\_Canuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazy_canuck/32/5282_2.png) [@Crazy\_Canuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazy_Canuck)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2018, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13990 "2018-06-14T20:31:41Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No, it isn’t. But even if it were, it would be sufficient, as the state needs to prove he was not acting in self defence. If he claimed he was, and there’s no other evidence, the case would need to be thrown out, as it’s impossible to prove guilt. You’re factually wrong here. Self-defense is an affirmative defense. The state does not need to prove he was not acting in self defense, it is the defense’s burden to prove they were acting in it. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2018, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13991 "2018-06-14T21:22:50Z")
> [@Crazy\_Canuck](#): > > You’re factually wrong here. Self-defense is an affirmative defense. The state does not need to prove he was not acting in self defense, it is the defense’s burden to prove they were acting in it. Nope, at least not in Florida and many other states\*. Which is, of course, the way it should be, as someone who kills in self defence is a victim of crime, not a criminal, and expecting victims of crime to prove they are not criminals is morally abhorrent. Well, at least it is to me, I suspect it’s different to the large amount of people here who don’t believe in the right to self defence. Did you actually follow the Zimmerman trial and research the issue, or are you just relying on your memories of how the law used to be, or how it is in different states. \*Technically, it is still an affirmative defence, in that the accused has to raise the issue for it to be considered. If they don’t claim it, then the prosecution don’t have to disprove it, but if the issue is raised and some evidence provided - such as a statement by the accused that it was self defence, not necessarily one provided at the trial - then it must be proven beyond reasonable doubt. My cite is the actual trial of George Zimmerman. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2018, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13992 "2018-06-14T21:23:56Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Spin it any way you want-The Zimmerman crap doesn’t belong in this thread, and you fucking know it. You’re not a mod any more, so shut the fuck up with your content-free drivel. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2018, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13993 "2018-06-14T21:29:01Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > You’re not a mod any more, so shut the fuck up with your content-free drivel. Quit trolling this thread, troll. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2018, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13994 "2018-06-14T21:30:32Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > My cite is the actual trial of George Zimmerman. Have you forgotten what thread this is…again? ---
**Author:** ![Crazy\_Canuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazy_canuck/32/5282_2.png) [@Crazy\_Canuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazy_Canuck)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2018, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13995 "2018-06-14T22:05:12Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Nope, at least not in Florida and many other states\*. > [@Steophan](#): > > \*Technically, it is still an affirmative defence So you just admitted you lied in your first sentence of that post … in the exact same post. That’s good enough for me. For that, you can sit in my ignore list all by yourself for the rest of time and think about what you’ve done. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2018, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13996 "2018-06-14T22:40:59Z")
[Mesa, AZ](https://apnews.com/a3cf442a337d47308248fd2f2668a889/Videos-show-Arizona-police-officers-hitting,-mocking-suspect) (what a surprise!): > [@](#): > > For the third time in a week, body camera videos from the Mesa Police Department have put the agency’s policies on the use of force under scrutiny. > > Defense attorney Bret Royle said he recently obtained the videos from the January arrest of Jose Luis Conde while negotiating a plea deal for him. Royle said the footage paints a more brutal picture than what he read in police reports. > [@](#): > > Conde is facing two counts of resisting arrest and one count each of aggravated assault, possession or use of narcotic drugs and escape. > > The 23-year-old landscape worker was a passenger in a car Mesa police stopped Jan. 28 for possible drunken driving. An officer did a pat-down search of him and believed he was concealing drugs, according to the police incident report. > > The officer then thought Conde was going to attack him and took him to the ground. He continued to struggle and allegedly swung his fists at the officer. They later found three baggies appearing to contain cocaine inside his sock. > > While two officers sustained scrapes, Conde was transported to a hospital. Police said Conde tried to flee his hospital room but was caught in the hallway and pushed back by officers. > > Video shows an officer punched and elbowed Conde four times while he was handcuffed. Conde said they also threw him into a wall, gouged him in the eye and struck his head with a massive flashlight. He also had to have part of his ear sewn back on. Oh, and: > [@](#): > > Mesa police said in a statement that it has not received a complaint nor has an internal investigation into Conde’s arrest been opened. :dubious::rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2018, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13997 "2018-06-15T00:53:27Z")
> [@Crazy\_Canuck](#): > > So you just admitted you lied in your first sentence of that post … in the exact same post. That’s good enough for me. For that, you can sit in my ignore list all by yourself for the rest of time and think about what you’ve done. You claimed the state did not have to prove he was not acting in self defence, which was completely wrong. I’m sure I’ll survive being on your ignore list, though, you’re the one who will have to remain in ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2018, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13998 "2018-06-15T01:27:31Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > [Mesa, AZ](https://apnews.com/a3cf442a337d47308248fd2f2668a889/Videos-show-Arizona-police-officers-hitting,-mocking-suspect) (what a surprise!):Oh, and::dubious::rolleyes: Well, you know it’s impossible to implement a policy whereby the police don’t elbow or punch handcuffed suspects. It goes against millions of years of human nature. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2018, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/13999 "2018-06-15T14:46:07Z")
Why even\* become\* a cop if you can’t kick ass and bust heads? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2018, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14000 "2018-06-15T15:36:33Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > Why even\* become\* a cop if you can’t kick ass and bust heads? Bribes and graft? ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2018, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14001 "2018-06-15T16:03:28Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Yes, it’s obviously ridiculous. On many levels. Not least is the idea that a gun is the only lethal weapon, but more important is your fundamental misunderstanding of what counts as a credible threat. No-one should have to wait until a weapon is drawn to defend themselves, and nor should they be punished for mistaking what an item is, if it’s a mistake that a reasonabel person would make. But how sure should they have to be that their life is actually in danger before they take a potential innocent life? 100%, 50%, 10%? How many civilians is each cops life worth? If a cop feels his life is threatened is he justified in grabbing a nearby civilian and using him as a human shield? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=699) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=701)