# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 709
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14162 "2018-08-01T23:00:31Z")
> [@Rysto](#): > > [Police in Aurora are called to a home invasion.](https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/police-suburban-denver-kill-resident-shot-intruder-56928012) They wind up shooting and killing the homeowner. [More about this in an AP story](https://apnews.com/d79e262bbae14f49b660cc1272d42ec7/Lawyer:-Man-killed-by-cop-shot-intruder-to-protect-grandson); it doesn’t look good, IMO. > [@](#): > > A decorated Vietnam War veteran woke up to the sound of his front door crashing in and saw a naked intruder attack his grandson, so he acted to protect his loved ones, according to his family’s lawyer. > > As the man tried to choke and drown the boy in the bathroom, Richard Black and his son desperately tried to pull him off early Monday, even poking him in the eyes, before the 73-year-old grabbed his 9mm handgun and shot the intruder twice in the chest, lawyer Siddhartha H. Rathod said. > > Soon after, police responding to 911 calls shot and killed Black in his house outside Denver. This was not an easy mistake to make: > [@](#): > > Black’s wife, Jeanette, had called authorities from outside the house, describing her husband and son, who are white, and the intruder, who was black, Rathod said. And it may be that there’s a hero involved: > [@](#): > > It’s the fourth police shooting in the city of Aurora in about a month. Police say the officer who killed Black also was involved in another fatal shooting on June 27 that is still being investigated. If guns are legal, it should not be legal to assume that everyone with a gun is a bad guy, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2018, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14163 "2018-08-02T00:24:29Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > [More about this in an AP story](https://apnews.com/d79e262bbae14f49b660cc1272d42ec7/Lawyer:-Man-killed-by-cop-shot-intruder-to-protect-grandson); it doesn’t look good, IMO.This was not an easy mistake to make:And it may be that there’s a hero involved:If guns are legal, it should not be legal to assume that everyone with a gun is a bad guy, IMO. I heard about this one. It is imperative, as a regular citizen who, God forbid, has to use lethal force to defend yourself, to NOT let the police see you with anything resembling a weapon in your hand. Despite the description relayed to the dispatcher. Cops kill U/C cops, and occasionally, uniformed ones all the time through mistake. They’ll blast you without much thought. I wonder why he went outside with the gun on him? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2018, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14164 "2018-08-02T00:27:40Z")
:dubious: From the AP story: > [@](#): > > Soon after, police responding to 911 calls shot and killed Black in his house outside Denver. “In” his house. ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2018, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14165 "2018-08-02T00:31:10Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > :dubious: > > From the AP story:“In” his house. Derp. And I read that twice, reading ‘outside’ both times. Weird. Probably mistook the description of Jeanette outside, for the deceased, inside. It pays to re-read. Still, as soon as you’re done using the thing, holster it. Or get away from it. Or both. Tough if the bad guy is still fighting with you when the cops show up. ---
**Author:** ![FavreCo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a698b9/32.png) [@FavreCo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FavreCo)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2018, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14166 "2018-08-02T01:59:39Z")
> [@russian\_heel](#): > > South Whitehall Township, PA (right outside Allentown) right across the street from popular Dorney Park. > > Cops respond to reports of an obviously disturbed man riding on and attacking cars. South Whitehall cop shows up, confronts dark skinned perpetrator who is clearly unarmed and after disobeying his orders instead of tasering him or calling for backup the cop puts 5 nuggets into him: > > Enjoy: > > [https://youtu.be/3g\_6G\_jQ4ac](https://youtu.be/3g_6G_jQ4ac) > Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Great job. Eliminated that loser. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2018, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14167 "2018-08-02T03:15:06Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > [LA cops shoot knife-wielding assailant and his hostage dead](https://apnews.com/990e47b80e244f7aaaddcdae2f21d4d4/LAPD-chief:-Officers-kill-a-hostage-for-1st-time-in-13-years). [The AP has updated this story](https://apnews.com/e1595828de7749a3a2f18fd67fd0cb77/Family-of-hostage-killed-by-Los-Angeles-police-files-claim). > [@](#): > > Witnesses told police that Perez moved the knife in a “sawing motion against her throat and cut her throat,” Cmdr. Alan Hamilton, who leads the unit that investigates police shootings, said in the video. > [@](#): > > Police Chief Michel Moore said Tuesday that “officers were forced to make split-second decisions based on the actions of a violent individual.” > > But Dunn said the department violated training protocols for handling suspects armed with weapons other than firearms and should have tried harder to de-escalate the situation. > > “It is illogical and inconceivable for an officer on the scene to not realize that she will certainly be shot if 18 rounds are fired,” Dunn said. > > “They say this is a fast-moving situation,” he said. “This is a fast-moving situation because they turned it into a fast-moving situation.” > [@](#): > > But Brian Dunn, the attorney representing Tollison’s family, said that a doctor told Tollison’s son that she only had a cut on her cheek and that it was not life-threatening. > [@](#): > > Tollison’s son, Jesse Pelaez, said at Wednesday’s news conference that he thinks that “if the hostage was somebody important, the situation would have been handled differently.” He’s right: they didn’t care because they don’t have to. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2018, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14168 "2018-08-02T04:19:26Z")
So they had to shoot and kill the hostage to save her. ---
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2018, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14169 "2018-08-02T13:21:00Z")
Aside from an increasing inability to trust what the police report about themselves, I have a hard time blaming them for this. Assuming that the hostage-taker was actually beginning to saw/slice the hostage’s throat - taking a chance on a shot (or several) is not an unreasonable choice. If you don’t immediately kill the victim, you might get them to the hospital in time to save them. A sliced throat has a much lower survivability I would think. ---
**Author:** ![Orwell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/dfb087/32.png) [@Orwell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orwell)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2018, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14170 "2018-08-02T14:00:27Z")
> [@Folacin](#): > > Aside from an increasing inability to trust what the police report about themselves, I have a hard time blaming them for this. > > Assuming that the hostage-taker was actually beginning to saw/slice the hostage’s throat - taking a chance on a shot (or several) is not an unreasonable choice. If you don’t immediately kill the victim, you might get them to the hospital in time to save them. A sliced throat has a much lower survivability I would think. I watched the video and I don’t think this is a good shoot at all. I realize things don’t happen like we see on TV shows, but the police opened fire almost immediately after the guy started using the woman as a human shield. There was no attempt to try and convince him to give up. No negotiation or attempt to de-escalate the situation. Nope. Open fire, with 18 shots fired, I believe. I think this is an area where more training is needed. It always seems to be the case that when one cop fires a shot, they all start firing their guns, often with 10+ or 20+ shots fired. What if the first one who shot actually had a somewhat open shot with good chances of missing the hostage? Doesn’t matter much if the rest start spraying bullets. ---
**Author:** ![Crazy\_Canuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazy_canuck/32/5282_2.png) [@Crazy\_Canuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazy_Canuck)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2018, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14171 "2018-08-02T18:59:36Z")
> [@Folacin](#): > > Assuming that the hostage-taker was actually beginning to saw/slice the hostage’s throat - taking a chance on a shot (or several) is not an unreasonable choice. If you don’t immediately kill the victim, you might get them to the hospital in time to save them. A sliced throat has a much lower survivability I would think. Unless the knife actually severs the jugular or the carotid artery, I know from personal experience that a knife wound to the neck is not nearly as lethal as you think. I’ll use the three inch scar on my neck as my cite. It is certainly more survivable than being hit by the **eighteen** bullets the pigs fired. If the hostage was accidentally hit by one round fired from a rifle by a sniper, that’s a reasonable choice. Firing eighteen rounds with handguns at a hostage taker is simply murdering the hostage. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2018, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14172 "2018-08-02T19:13:58Z")
> [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > Derp. And I read that twice, reading ‘outside’ both times. Weird. Probably mistook the description of Jeanette outside, for the deceased, inside. It pays to re-read. > > Still, as soon as you’re done using the thing, holster it. Or get away from it. Or both. She told the cops that the intruder was naked. Naked. It should have been fairly easy to tell who is NOT the intruder. If he is wearing clothes…NOT the intruder. A cop shoots and kills 2 people in a 30 day span. I, for one, am starting to doubt the police version in the first shooting. This reminds me of the woman who called the police about an intruder, and then was shot by the police when she approached the car. ---
**Author:** ![Projammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/projammer/32/559_2.png) [@Projammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Projammer)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2018, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14173 "2018-08-03T02:01:45Z")
[Georgia cops kept 13-year-old handcuffed in freezing squad car to get him to talk](https://abcnews.go.com/US/georgia-cops-13-year-handcuffed-freezing-squad-car/story?id=56963359) > [@](#): > > The police department in Roswell, Georgia, has grabbed headlines for the third time this year after body camera footage surfaced that showed an officer trying to “freeze out” a teenager to get information out of him. For the third time this year? Sounds like it’s time for some federal oversight. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2018, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14174 "2018-08-03T15:11:46Z")
Detroit police officer suspended after video shows him repeatedly punching woman in a hospital [https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/detroit-police-officer-suspended-after-video-shows-him-repeatedly-punching-woman-in-a-hospital/ar-BBLr3BI?li=BBnb7Kz](https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/detroit-police-officer-suspended-after-video-shows-him-repeatedly-punching-woman-in-a-hospital/ar-BBLr3BI?li=BBnb7Kz) > [@](#): > > A Detroit police officer has been suspended with pay after a bystander’s video showed him punching a possibly mentally ill woman at least 10 times at a hospital, the police chief said Here is the video: [http://www.fox2detroit.com/news/350585150-video](http://www.fox2detroit.com/news/350585150-video) ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2018, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14175 "2018-08-03T15:16:16Z")
> [@Rysto](#): > > [Police in Aurora are called to a home invasion.](https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/police-suburban-denver-kill-resident-shot-intruder-56928012) They wind up shooting and killing the homeowner. > [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > [More about this in an AP story](https://apnews.com/d79e262bbae14f49b660cc1272d42ec7/Lawyer:-Man-killed-by-cop-shot-intruder-to-protect-grandson); it doesn’t look good, IMO.This was not an easy mistake to make:And it may be that there’s a hero involved:If guns are legal, it should not be legal to assume that everyone with a gun is a bad guy, IMO. > [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > I wonder why he went outside with the gun on him? It looks now like Mr. Black did exit the house with his gun in his hand. I still maintain that in a society where guns are legal, it’s unreasonable to suppose that everyone with a gun is a bad guy with a gun. [AP follow-up story here](https://apnews.com/dbb5a591619346e99151f21bf7c2c5f5/Police-chief:-Unclear-if-homeowner-heard-orders-to-drop-gun). > [@](#): > > Thirty-three seconds after arriving at a suburban Denver home where a man had broken in and attacked an 11-year-old boy, police officers heard shots fired inside. > > An armed man came into view, police said Thursday, refusing five orders to drop his gun. He started to come toward officers and raise a flashlight he held in his other hand. > > An officer fired four rounds, killing 73-year-old Richard Black, Aurora Police Chief Nick Metz said in the department’s first detailed account of the shooting early Monday. > > The officers soon found the intruder — 26-year-old Dajon Harper — dead in a bathroom from shots Black fired to protect his grandson. Those were the shots officers heard after arriving at the chaotic scene. > > Metz said he did not hear the uniformed officers identify themselves as police in body camera video. He acknowledged that Black, a decorated Vietnam veteran, had a “significant hearing impairment” from his military service that may have made it hard for him to hear the orders to drop his gun. Even if someone had perfect hearing, firing 4 shots in a bathroom is going to fuck with your ability, I suspect; I welcome correction on that point from more knowledgable people. And I think the officer who fired shots may be a little too quick on the trigger, eh. I hope someone is doing a toxicology test on Mr. Harper. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2018, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14176 "2018-08-03T17:38:45Z")
> [@FavreCo](#): > > Great job. Eliminated that loser. I hope I’m getting wooshed here. Otherwise, what the hell, psycho? ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2018, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14177 "2018-08-05T14:17:45Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > So they had to shoot and kill the hostage to save her. Yep, uh huh. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2018, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14178 "2018-08-05T14:19:46Z")
> [@Projammer](#): > > [Georgia cops kept 13-year-old handcuffed in freezing squad car to get him to talk](https://abcnews.go.com/US/georgia-cops-13-year-handcuffed-freezing-squad-car/story?id=56963359) > For the third time this year? Sounds like it’s time for some federal oversight. Send in the FBI already. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2018, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14179 "2018-08-05T14:21:36Z")
> [@Crazy\_Canuck](#): > > Unless the knife actually severs the jugular or the carotid artery, I know from personal experience that a knife wound to the neck is not nearly as lethal as you think. I’ll use the three inch scar on my neck as my cite. It is certainly more survivable than being hit by the **eighteen** bullets the pigs fired. If the hostage was accidentally hit by one round fired from a rifle by a sniper, that’s a reasonable choice. Firing eighteen rounds with handguns at a hostage taker is simply murdering the hostage. This. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2018, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14180 "2018-08-05T14:22:39Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > She told the cops that the intruder was naked. Naked. It should have been fairly easy to tell who is NOT the intruder. If he is wearing clothes…NOT the intruder. > A cop shoots and kills 2 people in a 30 day span. I, for one, am starting to doubt the police version in the first shooting. > > This reminds me of the woman who called the police about an intruder, and then was shot by the police when she approached the car. It seems to happen a lot. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2018, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14181 "2018-08-05T14:42:14Z")
> [@FavreCo](#): > > Great job. Eliminated that loser. So anytime someone exhibits obvious signs of mental illness, police should just open fire on them? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=708) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=710)