# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 715
**Author:** ![Projammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/projammer/32/559_2.png) [@Projammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Projammer)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2018, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14282 "2018-09-06T22:16:12Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > 20% of my employees are not assholes, because I work to not hire assholes, and when I discover that I have in fact hired an asshole, I fire them. Your employees aren’t union. Most cops are. There are plenty of examples where where they have been fired but then had to be brought back on. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2018, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14283 "2018-09-07T01:21:01Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I don’t know. There might be something about those BLM riots that I associate with black people. And you’re right the rioters were not all black. So I should have said BLM rioters rather than black rioters. That would have only been a bit better – the vast majority of BLM supporters have never rioted, and BLM leaders and organizations explicitly denounce rioting. Though it would have had the virtue of not being explicitly racist. But you said you don’t know. Maybe, just maybe, it’s because you have some unconscious negative feelings about black people. Just maybe – no need to dismiss it outright without considering it. > [@](#): > > I think almost everyone on this board is probably a decent person. You more than most but that doesn’t make every one of your opinions correct. > > Of course I have subconscious inclinations, even biases and prejudices, we all do. It is a fairly common, almost universal psychological mechanism. Decent people try to address these biases. I also think you can go too far and inject race into everything and exaggerate the impact of race and racism. But in this case you were the one who “injected” race, and you admit that it’s reasonable to interpret your post as racist. That’s good that you recognize this, but I hope you can go to the next step and dig deep within yourself and find any potentially bigoted unconscious biases. If you recognize they exist, hopefully you have the desire to root them out. > [@](#): > > And perhaps you should consider whether the problems are as big as you think. > > Do you remember how we had trouble expressing how bad Trump? We had already used all available expletives to describe people like McCain and Romney. So when Trump came along and we used those words to describe Trump, it had lost most of its effect and impact. > > People have gotten into the habit of calling people racist to the point it has lost its impact. Noone gives a shit if some SJW calls them a racist anymore. We no longer think less of someone who is simply accused of racism. It has lost its silencing effect. It doesn’t keep people from trying tho. I’ll strongly dispute your last paragraph (the middle is a reasonable point and in hindsight the rhetoric against McCain and Romney was sometimes a bit too harsh, not that it was any worse than rhetoric against Obama). Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Ann Coulter, and other racism-deniers are far, far more to blame for any of this phenomenon than overzealous liberals. Virtually no prominent person has suffered greatly for being the target of a false accusation of racism (can you name a single one?). Plenty of prominent people have suffered essentially no consequences for racist assertions (hint – one of them is President, and many others have held high office for this President, along with several House Reps, and many more). In a rhetorical sense, racism still generally “wins” against anti-racism, except for the rare cases in which the racism goes to a level that even Limbaugh and Hannity can’t deny. Maybe less than 50 years ago, but not as little as it ought to. This is a popular right-wing meme, but IMO it’s 99% bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2018, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14284 "2018-09-07T11:58:19Z")
In other news, even sitting in your own apartment, minding your own business, might not save you from the bullets of law enforcement: Dallas officer enters apartment she mistakes for her own, fatally shoots man inside [Dallas police seek manslaughter warrant against officer who killed neighbor](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/dallas-officer-enters-apartment-she-mistakes-her-own-fatally-shoots-n907411) From the article: > [@](#): > > A man was killed late Thursday when a Dallas police officer returning home from her shift entered the wrong apartment in her building and eventually opened fire, authorities said. > > Details surrounding the 26-year-old man’s death were not immediately available early Friday. Dallas police said in a statement that preliminary information suggests the officer involved called for help, and told responding officers that “she entered the victim’s apartment believing that it was her own.” What you don’t see in this article, or any of the others that Dallas media have put out about this incident last night, is any mention that the officer has been arrested, or that a drug or alcohol screen has been performed, or anything beyond a, “Yep, I shot him.” I’m curious how this turns out, and I’m really curious how an officer can be so addled to mistake someone else’s apartment for her own, and compound that mistake by killing the resident. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2018, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14285 "2018-09-07T12:41:59Z")
That’s breaking and entering, assault and battery, and at least voluntary manslaughter. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2018, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14286 "2018-09-07T12:50:25Z")
Woman walks into the wrong apartment and shoots the occupant, and then only gets placed on fucking administrative leave?? You’ve got to be kidding me. ---
**Author:** ![Orwell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/dfb087/32.png) [@Orwell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orwell)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2018, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14287 "2018-09-07T13:19:05Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Woman walks into the wrong apartment and shoots the occupant, and then only gets placed on fucking administrative leave?? > > You’ve got to be kidding me. C’mon, the police department needs time to run drug and alcohol tests, complete a criminal background check, and otherwise dig up dirt on the resident. He has to be found at fault somehow. Plus, maybe the cop mistook his TV remote for a handgun. All completely understandable. ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2018, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14288 "2018-09-07T14:12:19Z")
Devil’s advocate, and so much so that I can smell brimstone, I can see the shooting being justified if: it was a mistake by the officer to enter the man’s apartment—maybe he left the door unlocked—and once she entered, he did his best Rorschach impersonation, “That door and lock were for YOUR protection, not MINE!”, EDIT: Thereby, putting her in fear of her life, and/or unlawfully preventing her from leaving. She’s entitled, as you or I would be, to defend herself from an unreasonable threat of immediate serious bodily injury. The question then would be whether his hypothetical threat of immediate bodily injury—and I’d like to stress that there’s been no evidence given so far that he did anything other than get shot and die—was unreasonable. FWIW, as I read Texas Penal Code § 30.02. Burglary ([https://codes.findlaw.com/tx/penal-code/penal-sect-30-02.html](https://codes.findlaw.com/tx/penal-code/penal-sect-30-02.html)), the officer wasn’t guilty of burglary. That requires, from Sub-section (a)(1), > [@](#): > > (a) A person commits an offense if, without the effective consent of the owner, the person: > > (1) enters a habitation, or a building (or any portion of a building) not then open to the public, with intent to commit a felony, theft, or an assault… We have an implied lack of effective consent of the owner, an entrance into a habitation not then open to the public, but we don’t have any intent to commit a felony, theft, or assault. Yet. Similarly, she’s not guilty of criminal trespass, which is found at Texas Penal Code § 30.05. [https://codes.findlaw.com/tx/penal-code/penal-sect-30-05.html](https://codes.findlaw.com/tx/penal-code/penal-sect-30-05.html) In my hypothetical, she’s made a mistake, hasn’t used force to enter the domicile, but isn’t trying to commit another crime like theft or assault, and isn’t trying to stay on the property after notice of a trespass. In that situation, the apartment owner would not be privileged to use deadly force against the officer, and accordingly, if the officer reasonably believed that the owner was immediately trying to use deadly force against her, she could defend herself. See for yourself: the self-defense statute in Texas is found, along with other “Justification[s] Excluding Criminal Responsibility” at Title 2, Chapter 9, of the Texas Penal Code. (Start here: [https://codes.findlaw.com/tx/penal-code/penal-sect-9-01.html](https://codes.findlaw.com/tx/penal-code/penal-sect-9-01.html), self-defense is covered in section 9.31, here: [https://codes.findlaw.com/tx/penal-code/penal-sect-9-31.html](https://codes.findlaw.com/tx/penal-code/penal-sect-9-31.html)) So I’m not 100% sure that she’s committed a crime here, despite how absolutely heinous and tragic this was, but damn, has she got some explaining to do. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2018, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14289 "2018-09-07T14:17:02Z")
I think most of us have absentmindedly walked in a wrong door at one time or another in our life. But it should be immediately obviously that the furniture, decorations, junk piled around is not ours. So our reaction is an embarrassing “Oops, sorry”, not pulling out a gun and killing someone. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2018, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14290 "2018-09-07T14:17:56Z")
How exactly did she enter the wrong apartment? Her key shouldn’t have worked in his lock-Did she kick the door open, or what? ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2018, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14291 "2018-09-07T18:54:34Z")
We have a smidge more info about the Dallas police officer going into the wrong apartment and killing a man incident. Per WFAA, [Dallas chief: Texas Rangers asked DPD to hold off on warrant in Botham Jean case | wfaa.com](https://www.wfaa.com/article/news/dallas-officer-who-shot-killed-man-in-wrong-apartment-to-be-charged/287-591760228) , and this helpful synopsis at [Heavy.com](http://Heavy.com), [Botham Shem Jean: 5 Fast Facts You Need to Know | Heavy.com](https://heavy.com/news/2018/09/botham-shem-jean/) the victim is 26 year old Botham Shem Jean, a risk assurance associate at PriceWaterhouseCoopers. He is also the son of several important people with the government and industries of the nation of Saint Lucia. Graduated with an accounting degree from Harding University in Arkansas. Sang in the church choir there. No criminal record so far as we know. The officer has not been identified, other than as a Caucasian female, in the Patrol Division. Worked for the department for 5 years. Worked a 12 hour shift plus some OT before the shooting. Blood draw was performed at some point. Warrant for manslaughter is being sworn out now for the officer. EDIT: No idea how she gained entry into the apartment though the [Heavy.com](http://Heavy.com) link quotes a family member saying that her keys were jammed in the lock and other apartment residents heard pounding on the doors. So, maybe he opened the door for her? We don’t know yet. So far as we know, former actual choir boy and current accountant, working for one of the Big Four, and with family members connected with the government of his country of origin—oh, and he’s black—while minding his own business gets killed in his apartment by a white female cop. This will end well. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2018, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14292 "2018-09-07T19:21:29Z")
Why do they need to obtain an arrest warrant? Can’t they just arrest her? ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2018, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14293 "2018-09-07T19:41:32Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Why do they need to obtain an arrest warrant? Can’t they just arrest her? IANAL. I am not a Texas lawyer. That said, my understanding is that Texas requires that warrants be issued for the arrest of people who are suspected of a felony, unless one of the exceptions to that rule, contained with Texas Code of Criminal Procedure Chapter 14, Arrest Without Warrant, apply. [Texas Code of Criminal Procedure Chapter 14 – Arrest Without Warrant » LawServer](https://www.lawserver.com/law/state/texas/tx-codes/texas_code_of_criminal_procedure_chapter_14) Basically, those exceptions cover offenses that the officer witnessed personally, a magistrate witnessed personally, or that the officer has probable cause to believe a crime was committed. The warrant is a procedural matter, but an important one, as powers to arrest with a warrant (discussed in Chapter 15 of the same Code, if you’re bored) are much broader than without. For one, it allows the officer to enter a residence to arrest the accused, which otherwise they would need to show some exigent circumstance excusing the necessity for a warrant. This is pretty quick, all things considered. Compare with, say, the shitshow of the shooting of Justine Damond by Officer Mohamed Noor in Minneapolis, and how long it took to indict Officer Noor. The officer here hasn’t been indicted yet, but that’s going to happen real soon, I think. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2018, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14294 "2018-09-07T19:55:26Z")
I’m sure that they have probable cause to believe a crime was committed. Since the woman said she shot the guy, and the guy is dead. No biggie, I’m sure they are doing it the right way. Just seemed strange to me. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2018, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14295 "2018-09-07T22:49:08Z")
Do cops have to shoot everything that moves? ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2018, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14296 "2018-09-08T04:34:50Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > Do cops have to shoot everything that moves? No, they shoot things that don’t move, too. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2018, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14297 "2018-09-09T06:11:55Z")
Cincinnati cop tases an eleven year old black girl for shoplifting, puts her in handcuffs, tells her “this is why there are no grocery stores in the black community.” > ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2018, 10:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14298 "2018-09-09T10:55:47Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > … You are letting your white liberal guilt make you say stupid things. … Right here you lose the argument. We want the police to treat everyone fairly, not do stupid shit that gets certain types of people killed at a disturbing rate and not close ranks to protect the guys who do stupid shit. That is called “_hey, don’t be reckless assholes_”. None of us feel any “white liberal guilt”, we feel pissed at police officers (some them even black) who betray the public trust and behave like reckless assholes. But I guess you would not recognize assholery, it being your natural MO. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2018, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14299 "2018-09-09T21:49:30Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Well, if I was a member of a certain group of government agents, and other members of that group did disgusting, despicable things, I would be right out there saying “That is NOT what my group stands for, we are a professional force that strives to ensure the safety of the citizens within our care” > > Or you know, something like that. Not “Sure he tased that 11 year old girl for stealing candy, but it’s procedure. Nothing else could have possibly been done” :rolleyes: > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Most assholes don’t have a significant risk of killing people by mistake, incompetence, or assholery at their jobs. If my colleagues’ assholery risked killing people, I’d speak out against it whenever I saw it. > > Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk > [@k9bfriender](#): > > Yes, I do expect the percentage to be lower among cops. Cops are not a random selection of people, they are screened and vetted. > > 20% of my employees are not assholes, because I work to not hire assholes, and when I discover that I have in fact hired an asshole, I fire them. Can we hold cops to a higher standard than entry level dog washers? > > That reluctance to get other cops into trouble is the problem. If you see a colleague breaking the law or policy, and you are reluctant to get them into trouble over it, then you are not just part of the problem, you _are_ the problem. Now, if it’s something minor, then maybe you counsel them yourself. “Hey Bob, I saw what you did there, and that is not according to our department policy.” If Bob listens, then you didn’t have to get him into trouble. If Bob doesn’t listen, then you should escalate it to Bob’s superiors. If you are reluctant to do that, then you should resign yourself, as you are supposedly upholding the law, while breaking it yourself. You guys should go become cops. I’m only half joking. Walk a day in their shoes. I get the feeling you guys don’t even associate with very many cops. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2018, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14300 "2018-09-09T21:52:43Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > You guys should go become cops. > > I’m only half joking. Walk a day in their shoes. I get the feeling you guys don’t even associate with very many cops. I have a cousin who’s a cop, and know a few others. I’m sure it’s tough challenging an ingrained workplace culture (i.e. the blue wall) that is justified as a life-and-death brotherhood, protecting itself against a public and society that doesn’t fully understand the risk and danger. But that doesn’t excuse decent people from the responsibility of trying to demolish an immoral and harmful system. And there are plenty of good cops who have tried. Serpico, for example. Every cop should be like Serpico. The ones that see bad things and stay silent are guilty of a very immoral sin. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2018, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14301 "2018-09-09T21:55:08Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’ll strongly dispute your last paragraph (the middle is a reasonable point and in hindsight the rhetoric against McCain and Romney was sometimes a bit too harsh, not that it was any worse than rhetoric against Obama). Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Ann Coulter, and other racism-deniers are far, far more to blame for any of this phenomenon than overzealous liberals. Virtually no prominent person has suffered greatly for being the target of a false accusation of racism (can you name a single one?). Plenty of prominent people have suffered essentially no consequences for racist assertions (hint – one of them is President, and many others have held high office for this President, along with several House Reps, and many more). In a rhetorical sense, racism still generally “wins” against anti-racism, except for the rare cases in which the racism goes to a level that even Limbaugh and Hannity can’t deny. Maybe less than 50 years ago, but not as little as it ought to. This is a popular right-wing meme, but IMO it’s 99% bullshit. I am not sure what you are saying. Are you saying that accusations of racism still carries the same weight it once did or that it never carried much weight (even among liberals)? I am pretty sure both of these are untrue. Accusations of racism still carry some weight and can still shut people up but less and less so. Accusations of racism never carried much weight with actual racists but it did with liberals. It was used by the crit race theorist disciples to shut down the most logical and analytical elements of the liberal movement so that the wingnuts could monopolize the podium. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=714) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=716)