# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 716
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2018, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14302 "2018-09-09T22:03:37Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I am not sure what you are saying. > > Are you saying that accusations of racism still carries the same weight it once did or that it never carried much weight (even among liberals)? I am pretty sure both of these are untrue. > > Accusations of racism still carry some weight and can still shut people up but less and less so. > > Accusations of racism never carried much weight with actual racists but it did with liberals. It was used by the crit race theorist disciples to shut down the most logical and analytical elements of the liberal movement so that the wingnuts could monopolize the podium. I’m talking about broader society. Accusations of racism do very little in broader society, barring 100% undeniable overt racism to the point that even Hannity says “okay, that was racist”. But most racism doesn’t fit that, and thus most accusations of racism result in very little consequences, even though it doesn’t take more than half a brain to understand that stuff like “states rights”, “welfare queens”, “young bucks”, birtherism, much of Trump’s rhetoric, and much more, is rooted in racism and aimed at racists. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2018, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14303 "2018-09-09T23:49:26Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Accusations of racism never carried much weight with actual racists but it did with liberals. It was used by the crit race theorist disciples to shut down the most logical and analytical elements of the liberal movement so that the wingnuts could monopolize the podium. LOL. I’ve always wanted someone with clarity and insight to explain the nuances of Critical Race Theory to me. Thanks for your yeoman service in the cause of intellectual honesty and sophisticated analysis. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2018, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14304 "2018-09-10T13:43:29Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > You guys should go become cops. > > I’m only half joking. Walk a day in their shoes. I get the feeling you guys don’t even associate with very many cops. Sure. I hope you don’t dare criticize anyone without you yourself having walked a day in their shoes. I doubt you’ve ever held high public office in the Federal government. I better not catch you criticizing elected officials. Since you haven’t spent a day in their shoes. :rolleyes::rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2018, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14305 "2018-09-10T19:45:52Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > You guys should go become cops. > > I’m only half joking. Walk a day in their shoes. I get the feeling you guys don’t even associate with very many cops. We could probably get jobs on the Baltimore force, what with all the cops from Gun Trace Task Force being convicted of committing criminal acts greater and for a longer period of time than those criminals they were supposed to be catching. [http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/crime/bs-md-ci-gttf-jenkins-taylor-sentencing-20180606-story.html](http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/crime/bs-md-ci-gttf-jenkins-taylor-sentencing-20180606-story.html) ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2018, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14306 "2018-09-10T19:49:04Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > We could probably get jobs on the Baltimore force, what with all the cops from Gun Trace Task Force being convicted of committing criminal acts greater and for a longer period of time than those criminals they were supposed to be catching. > > [http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/crime/bs-md-ci-gttf-jenkins-taylor-sentencing-20180606-story.html](http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/crime/bs-md-ci-gttf-jenkins-taylor-sentencing-20180606-story.html) Hey, you can’t judge those cops. You haven’t spent a day in their shoes! ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2018, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14307 "2018-09-10T20:49:17Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > We could probably get jobs on the Baltimore force, what with all the cops from Gun Trace Task Force being convicted of committing criminal acts greater and for a longer period of time than those criminals they were supposed to be catching. > > [http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/crime/bs-md-ci-gttf-jenkins-taylor-sentencing-20180606-story.html](http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/crime/bs-md-ci-gttf-jenkins-taylor-sentencing-20180606-story.html) but that would mean having to move within commuting distance of Baltimore ---
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2018, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14308 "2018-09-10T21:26:27Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > but that would mean having to move within commuting distance of Baltimore Or possibly living in Baltimore. KCMO police have to live within the city limits. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2018, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14309 "2018-09-11T08:30:28Z")
It looks like the Texas Rangers’ initial report is trying to blame the victim who was shot by the Dallas cop who went into the wrong apartment. > **[Dallas Police Officer Shot Man in His Apartment After He Didn't Follow...](https://www.thedailybeast.com/dallas-police-officer-shot-man-in-his-apartment-after-he-didnt-follow-verbal-commands)** > > In an arrest affidavit, officials say Officer Amber Guyger shot Botham Jean in his apartment after he didn't respond to her commands. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2018, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14310 "2018-09-11T13:45:29Z")
It’s clear the guy should have just shut up and followed the verbal commands of the person entering his apartment in the middle of the night. ---
**Author:** ![Amara\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/7993a0/32.png) [@Amara\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amara_1)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2018, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14311 "2018-09-11T15:05:23Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > It looks like the Texas Rangers’ initial report is trying to blame the victim who was shot by the Dallas cop who went into the wrong apartment. > [Dallas Police Officer Shot Man in His Apartment After He Didn't Follow ‘Verbal Commands’](https://www.thedailybeast.com/dallas-police-officer-shot-man-in-his-apartment-after-he-didnt-follow-verbal-commands) The really _interesting_ part is that the cop’s initial report contradicts this statement. Similarly two neighbors said they heard loud knocking and demands to “Open up”. :mad: Great job Rangers! ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2018, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14312 "2018-09-11T15:59:30Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Sure. > > I hope you don’t dare criticize anyone without you yourself having walked a day in their shoes. > > I doubt you’ve ever held high public office in the Federal government. I better not catch you criticizing elected officials. Since you haven’t spent a day in their shoes. > > :rolleyes::rolleyes: Or telling me (or anyone else) how to do their job ya know what i’m sayin’? Or bitching about a movie or a song or a TV show or a book for that matter ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2018, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14313 "2018-09-11T16:31:32Z")
> [@Amara\_1](#): > > The really _interesting_ part is that the cop’s initial report contradicts this statement. Similarly two neighbors said they heard loud knocking and demands to “Open up”. :mad: > Great job Rangers! Did any witness hear her identify herself as a police officer? If not, her ‘verbal commands’ mean nothing. WAG here, but I think the officer may have been intoxicated and the force wants to cover it up. It would better explain how she came to break into an apartment on the wrong floor. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2018, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14314 "2018-09-11T16:33:43Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > Did any witness hear her identify herself as a police officer? If not, her ‘verbal commands’ mean nothing. > > WAG here, but I think the officer may have been intoxicated and the force wants to cover it up. It would better explain how she came to break into an apartment on the wrong floor. What? Does this mean the guy she shot _didn’t_ leave the door open while he sat in the dark? ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2018, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14315 "2018-09-11T16:45:24Z")
When I lived in an apartment building there were plenty of times my door was ajar. Running in and out doing laundry, multiple trips taking things to or from my car, etc. And “not following verbal commands”? Seriously? In his home, minding his own business? The cop was lucky she didn’t get shot before she killed the dude. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2018, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14316 "2018-09-11T17:08:58Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > … And “not following verbal commands”? Seriously? In his home, minding his own business? … To be completely “fair”, if someone breaks into your home in the dark of night and starts shouting orders at you, it may be best to comply. Home invaders can be dangerous people, who are often armed, who will gleefully fuck you up to get what they want. Which is to say, she should be treated the way the justice system treats violent home invaders. An accidental criminal is still a criminal. ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2018, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14317 "2018-09-11T17:28:17Z")
One thing about humans is they often get flustered and don’t think clearly. If I go up to a random person and start yelling “WHAT IS FIVE PLUS TWO! WHAT IS FIVE PLUS TWO!”, that person may become completely flustered and not be able to answer. The overwhelming feeling of confusion makes rational thought difficult. I think that happens a lot of times in these police encounters. The police shout instructions expecting them to be followed immediately. If they don’t, they react as if the person is being non-compliant. The reality is that the way they are delivering their commands makes compliance difficult. It’s like a ‘deer in the headlights’. It’s easy to think of what we’d do in the calm state of posting to a message board, but I imagine most of us would react in unexpected ways if someone barged in and started shouting orders. It makes me wonder about her course of action in this situation. It seems designed to get someone killed–either him or her. A much safer way to handle it for everyone would be to back away and call for support. There’s no need to go into the apartment. Even if it was her apartment and it was a burglar, there’s no need for her to go in. She could have stayed in a safe place in the hallway with visibility to the door until help arrives. ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2018, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14318 "2018-09-11T17:53:28Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > One thing about humans is they often get flustered and don’t think clearly. If I go up to a random person and start yelling “WHAT IS FIVE PLUS TWO! WHAT IS FIVE PLUS TWO!”, that person may become completely flustered and not be able to answer. The overwhelming feeling of confusion makes rational thought difficult. I think that happens a lot of times in these police encounters. The police shout instructions expecting them to be followed immediately. If they don’t, they react as if the person is being non-compliant. The reality is that the way they are delivering their commands makes compliance difficult. It’s like a ‘deer in the headlights’. > > It’s easy to think of what we’d do in the calm state of posting to a message board, but I imagine most of us would react in unexpected ways if someone barged in and started shouting orders. > > It makes me wonder about her course of action in this situation. It seems designed to get someone killed–either him or her. A much safer way to handle it for everyone would be to back away and call for support. There’s no need to go into the apartment. Even if it was her apartment and it was a burglar, there’s no need for her to go in. She could have stayed in a safe place in the hallway with visibility to the door until help arrives. Add points if there’re multiple cops, and they’re shouting conflicting commands… Personally, I’m not moving in that situation and I’m leaving my hands as high above my head as I can get them. Clearing your own apartment, in the dark, by yourself, sounds like a really stupid thing to do. If she did hear Jean moving around, and still thought it was her apartment that he was ransacking, the thing to do is back off and call to get some friends over to help arrest the guy. What’s he going to do, bail out of the third (or whatever floor she was on) story window? Sit by the door and wait for your fellow police officers to come and arrest this guy. Or sit for a second, look at the apt number on the light fixture, and slowly slink away when realization dawns. That works too. I think she did think it was her place. She starting screwing with the lock when it wouldn’t open, maybe swearing at the cheap piece of shit for not working. Mr. Jean, being the ex-choir leader and present accounting associate, hears this commotion, and was naive enough to open the door and ask what’s going on. Instead of backing away from the door, and calling the cops about this crazy bitch pounding on his door. She sees a big black guy in his underwear opening her door, she freaks, draws her service weapon and places a double tap into his chest and abdomen. Honest mistake of fact on her part (and Texas discusses Mistakes of Fact in their Penal Code at section 8.02: [https://codes.findlaw.com/tx/penal-code/penal-sect-8-02.html](https://codes.findlaw.com/tx/penal-code/penal-sect-8-02.html)), but it’s not one that should excuse her from criminal responsibility for Mr. Jean’s death. It should though change what would have been her EDIT: unlawful intentional killing of another human being, which would be murder, to recklessly causing the death of another human being. Which is manslaughter. If you want to say that she did not take the requisite amount of care to establish that she was lawfully justified in using deadly force, and that her negligence led to the death of Mr. Jean, I’m fine with that too. (Though the protesters in Dallas might not be.) ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2018, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14319 "2018-09-11T17:55:16Z")
I saw something in the news last night about this apartment building and they mentioned that the inhabitants use key fobs to open their doors and not keys. I didn’t understand what they were saying, but I’m not sure she actually used keys to open the door. Does somebody else’s fob let them into your apartment? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2018, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14320 "2018-09-11T17:58:22Z")
Will someone explain to me how parking on the wrong floor causes someone to push the wrong elevator button? ---
**Author:** ![carrps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carrps/32/2957_2.png) [@carrps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carrps)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2018, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14321 "2018-09-11T17:59:30Z")
> [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > Clearing your own apartment, in the dark, by yourself, sounds like a really stupid thing to do. If she did hear Jean moving around, and still thought it was her apartment that he was ransacking, the thing to do is back off and call to get some friends over to help arrest the guy. What’s he going to do, bail out of the third (or whatever floor she was on) story window? Sit by the door and wait for your fellow police officers to come and arrest this guy. Or sit for a second, look at the apt number on the light fixture, and slowly slink away when realization dawns. That works too. Or she could have noticed the **bright red door mat** that she did not have outside _her_ apartment. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=715) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=717)