# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 733
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2019, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14643 "2019-04-16T18:26:37Z")
> [@GreysonCarlisle](#): > > She told him to drop it, not to fiddle with it. > > Anyway, a little fault on both sides, but not much on either. For the last time, you rancid fuckwad-there is no way on earth he could have followed her instructions to place that weapon without lifting it first, and he picked it up in such a way that there was no mistaking what his intentions were. ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2019, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14644 "2019-04-16T18:30:59Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > For the last time, you rancid fuckwad-there is no way on earth he could have followed her instructions to place that weapon without lifting it first, and he picked it up in such a way that there was no mistaking what his intentions were. See if you can get this through your head, you oozing pitfuck. He could have–and should have–just dropped the gun to the ground and slowly raised his hands. Because that’s what you do when you have at least three guns pointed at your head and everybody’s shouting at you to _just fucking drop it_. ---
**Author:** ![Covfefe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ee7513/32.png) [@Covfefe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Covfefe)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2019, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14645 "2019-04-16T18:34:08Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > _Which is precisely what she told him to do._ He didn’t respond for 30 seconds after she first asked him to. I’d like to think if he did what he did within 5 seconds of being asked or if he had said something like, “Okay, I will,” there would have been no shooting. I don’t know that this is an iron clad justification but is reasonable to become more fearful in that situation where every second is of the essence if the suspect with the gun doesn’t respond for half a minute; you just don’t know what he is thinking. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2019, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14646 "2019-04-16T18:40:17Z")
> [@GreysonCarlisle](#): > > See if you can get this through your head, you oozing pitfuck. He could have–and should have–just dropped the gun to the ground and slowly raised his hands. > > Because that’s what you do when you have at least three guns pointed at your head and everybody’s shouting at you to _just fucking drop it_. How, by magically transporting it through his body to the ground below him? It is simply astounding how your need to spread hatred shuts down your brain functions. If someone called you a troll it would actually be a compliment because it would at least indicate that you aren’t as idiotic as you make yourself out to be. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2019, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14647 "2019-04-16T18:42:48Z")
> [@Covfefe](#): > > He didn’t respond for 30 seconds after she first asked him to. I’d like to think if he did what he did within 5 seconds of being asked or if he had said something like, “Okay, I will,” there would have been no shooting. I don’t know that this is an iron clad justification but is reasonable to become more fearful in that situation where every second is of the essence if the suspect with the gun doesn’t respond for half a minute; you just don’t know what he is thinking. Have a cop scream orders in your face while pointing a gun at you, and you too might spend a tiny bit of time trying to figure out how to follow the orders without getting your head blown off…especially if there was precedent for events like this to go wrong in the past. ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2019, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14648 "2019-04-16T18:47:14Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > How, by magically transporting it through his body to the ground below him? By letting go of it. Or just raising his hands if it was in his pocket or on his lap. Did you have something more to say? Because all I heard was a mosquito buzzing around. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2019, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14649 "2019-04-16T18:54:21Z")
> [@GreysonCarlisle](#): > > By letting go of it. Or just raising his hands if it was in his pocket or on his lap. Are you saying that he would have lived if he had disobeyed her orders…or are you saying that it didn’t matter to you what he did as long as he was dead at the end of the exchange? Move too fast-shoot him. Move too slow-shoot him. Refuse to obey commands-shoot him. Touch the weapon, _in any manner whatsoever_-shoot him. And you do know that a constant buzzing in your head might indicate brain damage of some sort-you should go see a doctor. ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2019, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14650 "2019-04-16T18:56:28Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Are you saying that he would have lived if he had disobeyed her orders…or are you saying that it didn’t matter to you what he did as long as he was dead at the end of the exchange? Neither. Buzz buzz buzz. Buzz buzz buzz. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2019, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14651 "2019-04-16T19:01:07Z")
> [@GreysonCarlisle](#): > > By letting go of it. Or just raising his hands if it was in his pocket or on his lap. But the cop was yelling at him, time after time, to “drop the gun.” If it was in his pocket (which it appears to have been from the video), and he started to raise his hands upwards, he was probably just as likely to be shot. One of the foundational problems here is the strategy the cops used, and that cops so often use, of doing nothing except aiming their guns and yelling at the top of their voices and leaving no possibility for a rational and negotiated and de-escalated result to occur. When I first read about this case, I was willing to give the cops the benefit of the doubt, but the video doesn’t show a good shooting, in my opinion. This is nowhere near the most egregious example of a police shooting that I’ve ever seen, but I like to think they could have handled the contact much better, and that they could have let him actually put the damn gun on the ground like he was trying to do before opening up on him. I also disagree that the cops couldn’t have known that he was holding the gun in a non-threatening way, and that he was placing it on the ground. Both of those things were evident to me the first time I watched the video, at regular speed. And the cops saw it much more clearly, because they had the crystal clarity of actual reality, rather than the somewhat fuzzy resolution of a bodycam. Not only that, the lenses on those bodycams are quite wide angle, to take in a whole scene, and make the gun look further away than it would have appeared to the cops. If they couldn’t see, from their position, that he was holding the gun by the barrel and with muzzle pointed away from them, and with the butt pointed at the ground, then they need vision tests. We are often told that police are highly trained to deal with dangerous situations, and that we should let them do their job. Why is it, then, that when cases like this arise, the standard we apply to their behavior is not that of a highly-trained professional, but that of a pants-wetting schoolkid? And why do we so often apparently expect civilians without extensive training to be more calm and controlled and rational in these situations than the professional law enforcement officers? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2019, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14652 "2019-04-16T19:06:08Z")
> [@GreysonCarlisle](#): > > Neither. > > Buzz buzz buzz. Buzz buzz buzz. An insanity defense isn’t going to help your argument. ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2019, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14653 "2019-04-16T19:07:17Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > But the cop was yelling at him, time after time, to “drop the gun.” If it was in his pocket (which it appears to have been from the video), and he started to raise his hands upwards, he was probably just as likely to be shot. I disagree with that. If it were true, we’d see more incidents of people trying to surrender and getting gunned down anyway. If you have guns pointed at you, drop what’s in your hands and slowly raise them. The cops’ll retrieve whatever’s in your pockets without shooting you. I get what the guy was trying to do–to show the cops that he was putting his weapon down–but in that fraction of a second, _he’s still got a gun in his hand_ is all the cops saw. ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2019, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14654 "2019-04-16T19:09:50Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > An insanity defense isn’t going to help your argument. My defense is fine. Yours, on the other hand–as is typical for you–consists of nothing but excluded middle and strawman fallacies. Why do you post here? You don’t seem to have learned much over the last 20 years. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2019, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14655 "2019-04-16T19:14:43Z")
> [@GreysonCarlisle](#): > > My defense is fine. Yours, on the other hand–as is typical for you–consists of nothing but excluded middle and strawman fallacies. > > Why do you post here? You don’t seem to have learned much over the last 20 years. Your posting history claims that you have been here for only two years, which begs the question: Are you a returning sock, or are you a stalker, that you know my posting history over the last couple of decades? ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2019, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14656 "2019-04-16T19:16:44Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Your posting history claims that you have been here for only two years, which begs the question: Are you a returning sock, or are you a stalker, that you know my posting history over the last couple of decades? More fallacies. Get some new material. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2019, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14657 "2019-04-16T19:20:10Z")
> [@GreysonCarlisle](#): > > More fallacies. Get some new material. Why bother, when you supply enough material to keep The BBQ Pit going for the next five years? ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2019, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14658 "2019-04-16T19:26:29Z")
Back on topic: > [@mhendo](#): > > We are often told that police are highly trained to deal with dangerous situations, and that we should let them do their job. Why is it, then, that when cases like this arise, the standard we apply to their behavior is not that of a highly-trained professional, but that of a pants-wetting schoolkid? And why do we so often apparently expect civilians without extensive training to be more calm and controlled and rational in these situations than the professional law enforcement officers? Because even highly trained professionals make mistakes and misread a situation. And most of these stories I’ve read are because of bad cops who intentionally do bad things. I don’t think the cop here is a bad apple. At worst, she misread a bad situation. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2019, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14659 "2019-04-16T19:26:33Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > I guess I hoped you would be honest enough to understand the distinction I’m making, but almost two decades of experience with you on this message board should have prepared me… > > I was talking about raising in the context of preparing to shoot. I’ve extracted the relevant part of the video, and turned it into a [slow-motion GIF](https://hendo.smugmug.com/Miscellaneous/n-xnNff/i-SzZNp7f/A). The original video is 30 frames per second, but my GIF has been slowed to 1 fps to allow for close scrutiny. I also made a [close-up GIF](https://hendo.smugmug.com/Miscellaneous/n-xnNff/i-wrWQ7mf/A) of his hand. > > Of course, a reasonable response to this is that things are much clearer when slowed down, and the cops had to deal with this in real time. Fair enough. But the reason I slowed it down is largely to convince people of something that seemed pretty clear to me even when I watched it at full speed. The first time you watched it, you knew already how it turned out. The cops did not have that luxury. And if it turned out that you were wrong, nobody fucking shot at you. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2019, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14660 "2019-04-16T19:29:37Z")
> [@GreysonCarlisle](#): > > Back on topic: > > Because even highly trained professionals make mistakes and misread a situation. And most of these stories I’ve read are because of bad cops who intentionally do bad things. > > I don’t think the cop here is a bad apple. At worst, she misread a bad situation. She created the bad situation by giving orders than shooting someone for following those orders. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2019, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14661 "2019-04-16T19:36:20Z")
> [@GreysonCarlisle](#): > > Because even highly trained professionals make mistakes and misread a situation. And most of these stories I’ve read are because of bad cops who intentionally do bad things. > > I don’t think the cop here is a bad apple. At worst, she misread a bad situation. Even if what you’re saying were true (it’s not), your cheap rationalizations are precisely the type of attitude that ensure that police departments don’t have any incentive to improve their training or change their approach. ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2019, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14662 "2019-04-16T19:45:41Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Even if what you’re saying were true (it’s not), your cheap rationalizations are precisely the type of attitude that ensure that police departments don’t have any incentive to improve their training or change their approach. What part is not true? Highly trained professionals never make mistakes or misread a situation? I’ve got a space shuttle to sell you. I don’t really like most cops. They–each and every one–need a lot more training in de-escalation. So don’t “your cheap rationalizations” me, pal. In _this_ situation, though, I don’t see what better approach there was. Don’t forget that there was someone else in the car, who was also in danger. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=732) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=734)