# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 734
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2019, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14663 "2019-04-16T19:52:34Z")
I have still not seen the video. (Youtube is blocked at work) Him kneeling in front of the car door with a gun is suspicious behavior, at the very least. I certainly would have been wondering what his intent was. There seems to be disagreement about whether he had the gun in his hand. Can anyone say for sure? One poster says he didn’t respond for 30 seconds after being ordered to put it down. Was it 30 seconds? 30 seconds is a lot longer than people think. I will say this. Cops aggressively shouting orders doesn’t seem like a way to diffuse a situation. The shouting, especially multiple cops shouting, seems like it would inflame a sense of panic. It may actually heighten a sense of fear within the cops. Scared people make bad decisions. Is it fear that makes them shout this way? Or is this how they are trained to act? ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2019, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14664 "2019-04-16T20:02:40Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > Was it 30 seconds? 30 seconds is a lot longer than people think. Almost 40 seconds, according to the video. She said some variation of “Drop it!” 12 times (plus, they had to make a clueless bystander clear the scene). ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2019, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14665 "2019-04-16T20:06:44Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > I have still not seen the video. (Youtube is blocked at work) > > Him kneeling in front of the car door with a gun is suspicious behavior, at the very least. I certainly would have been wondering what his intent was. There seems to be disagreement about whether he had the gun in his hand. Can anyone say for sure? One poster says he didn’t respond for 30 seconds after being ordered to put it down. Was it 30 seconds? 30 seconds is a lot longer than people think. > > I will say this. Cops aggressively shouting orders doesn’t seem like a way to diffuse a situation. The shouting, especially multiple cops shouting, seems like it would inflame a sense of panic. It may actually heighten a sense of fear within the cops. Scared people make bad decisions. Is it fear that makes them shout this way? Or is this how they are trained to act? has there ever been a case where the cops gave multiple orders, the suspect died while trying to obey one set but ignoring other(s)…and the cops were blamed and punished? ---
**Author:** ![Covfefe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ee7513/32.png) [@Covfefe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Covfefe)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2019, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14666 "2019-04-16T20:08:39Z")
I didn’t listen to the audio. I’m going off [a piece of commentary](http://www.charlottemagazine.com/Charlotte-Magazine/April-2019/Analysis-Unanswerable-Questions-in-Danquirs-Franklin-Shooting/) about the incident I read. > [@](#): > > One factor that does shore up CMPD’s argument that Kerl “perceived an imminent, deadly threat”: A full 40 seconds elapsed from Kerl’s first command to “let me see your hands,” and 30 seconds from her first command to drop the gun. During that time, by my count, she and Deal issued a minimum of 19 commands for Franklin to drop the gun, but he remained crouched next to the passenger door of a Honda Accord, stared straight ahead, as if dazed, and barely moved. (There may have been more than 19 commands, as some of them overlap.) What was going through his mind? We’ll never know. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2019, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14667 "2019-04-16T20:14:09Z")
> [@Covfefe](#): > > I didn’t listen to the audio. I’m going off [a piece of commentary](http://www.charlottemagazine.com/Charlotte-Magazine/April-2019/Analysis-Unanswerable-Questions-in-Danquirs-Franklin-Shooting/) about the incident I read. Might it be he was afraid to move? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2019, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14668 "2019-04-16T20:21:17Z")
> [@](#): > > What was going through his mind? We’ll never know. I’m guessing .38 caliber. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2019, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14669 "2019-04-16T20:24:20Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I’m guessing .38 caliber. > > Regards, > Shodan You know that the guy was trying to give up, but you still want to make pedestrian jokes about his death? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2019, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14670 "2019-04-16T20:25:00Z")
You brave souls who think you know how it should have gone down-Have you ever been confronted by a scared person shouting and waving a gun in your face? People tend to freeze up in such situations, and the fear tends to override whatever noise is going on. You see death, and whatever you hear only reinforces what you see. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2019, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14671 "2019-04-16T20:29:26Z")
> [@GreysonCarlisle](#): > > Almost 40 seconds, according to the video. She said some variation of “Drop it!” 12 times (plus, they had to make a clueless bystander clear the scene). She “said” did she? Sounded more like screamed to me. It was so loud the mic on the camera couldn’t deal with it properly. As I said before, the first problem here was the approach taken by the cops. If the very strategy they use for situations like this is one that both conveys AND instills panic, then bad outcomes are, at least in part, a self-fulfilling prophecy. And when they refuse to change their strategy, then that needs to be part of how their actions are evaluated. > [@Shodan](#): > > I’m guessing .38 caliber. I wish I could say this comment surprised me. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2019, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14672 "2019-04-16T20:48:36Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I’m guessing .38 caliber. > > Regards, > Shodan Yeah, that’s pretty cold-blooded, man. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2019, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14673 "2019-04-16T21:48:07Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > has there ever been a case where the cops gave multiple orders, the suspect died while trying to obey one set but ignoring other(s)…and the cops were blamed and punished? Not sure I understand the question. But unless there was video, we would never know about it. My post was not about _conflicting_ orders, but about the aggressive nature and how it might serve to exacerbate an already tense situation. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2019, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14674 "2019-04-17T12:39:33Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > Him kneeling in front of the car door with a gun is suspicious behavior, at the very least. I certainly would have been wondering what his intent was. I doubt it was hard to figure out his intention - > [@](#): > > Before the shooting, one witness who called 911 said that an armed man had entered Burger King and tried to start a fight with employees. > > “Can you please send somebody quickly? Please. He got a gun. … He’s pointing it,” she said. That goes a bit beyond suspicious behavior, IMO. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2019, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14675 "2019-04-17T16:17:37Z")
This reminds me of a joke we used to say when we were playing cops and Robbers when we were kids. “Don’t move or I shoot! Hands up or I shoot!” The difference being that even back then as 10 year olds we knew that it was absurd, and back then, whatever the person did, you just pointed your finger and said bang bang, so nobody died. ---
**Author:** ![UCBearcats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/77aa72/32.png) [@UCBearcats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UCBearcats)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2019, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14676 "2019-04-20T23:26:37Z")
More thug ass cops roughing up people they have under control. > **[Cellphone video shows tough takedown of teens by deputies in Tamarac](https://wsvn.com/news/local/cellphone-video-shows-tough-takedown-of-teens-by-deputies-in-tamarac/)** > > TAMARAC, FLA. (WSVN) - Cellphone video footage captured several rough arrests involving teens outside of a McDonald’s in Tamarac near J.P. Taravella High School.Broward Sheriff’s... ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2019, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14677 "2019-04-21T06:49:40Z")
> [@UCBearcats](#): > > [Cellphone video shows tough takedown of teens by deputies in Tamarac - WSVN 7News | Miami News, Weather, Sports | Fort Lauderdale](https://wsvn.com/news/local/cellphone-video-shows-tough-takedown-of-teens-by-deputies-in-tamarac) Another example of how the jobs attracts far too many old-fashioned bullies and thugs. According to [this story](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/florida-deputy-reassigned-after-video-shows-him-punching-teen-head-n996536), his police report said: > [@](#): > > “At this point, his left arm was free and next to him, while he placed his arm under his face…I struck the male in the right side of his head with a closed fist as a distractionary technique to free his right hand." At least he’s been > [@](#): > > placed on administrative assignment, meaning he must forfeit his county-issued weapons and is prohibited from entering any sheriff’s facility outside of his own without the approval of internal affairs. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2019, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14678 "2019-04-21T12:31:06Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Yeah, that’s pretty cold-blooded, man. The guy is black. What else do you expect from Shodan? He’s just another racist asshole, and just loves to troll. The sooner he quits the Dope, the better. ---
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2019, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14679 "2019-04-21T12:32:13Z")
Shodan such human garbage. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2019, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14680 "2019-04-21T12:52:19Z")
> [@GreysonCarlisle](#): > > (Hope the link works.) [Here’s a picture](https://ibb.co/NZBycg7) of him with the gun I captured from the link above. He’s clearly holding it by the barrel and apparently intended to comply. > > The picture, though, has been enlarged, enhanced, and frozen in time. The cops couldn’t have reasonably known what he was doing. All they’d see is a man bringing up a gun. This is true. But given that less than a second after the gun was seen, shots were fired, I’d argue the man was dead the moment the cops showed up, no matter what his actions. If you yell for someone to comply, then fire the moment they DO comply, why the fuck is the next person supposed to follow along? ---
**Author:** ![Isosleepy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/isosleepy/32/479_2.png) [@Isosleepy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isosleepy)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2019, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14681 "2019-04-21T14:49:01Z")
I think there’s a big problem with the current concept that officer safety - i.e. the officer come home alive - _at any, truly any, cost_ is a huge problem. It needs to change. There needs to be training and a massive culture change to stop the “shoot first, lie about it later, have it whitewashed in the end” sequence we have seen entirely too many times. That said, when the 911 call mentions a gun, used in a threatening manner no less, and that gun is then visible when officers are on the scene, and it is not immediately dropped - I believe any shooting after that is justified. De-escalation in that particular case is clearly, demonstratively and immediately getting rid of the gun. While I believe being a po means accepting a certain risk, it doesn’t include waiting to get shot with a gun you have been informed about and have seen in the control of the suspect. Now, pepper-spraying, tackling and kicking anyone because of an “aggressive stance” [Mayor wants police officer fired over 'outrageous' arrest of teen](https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/mayor-calls-for-firing-of-police-officer-involved-in-outrageous-arrest-of-florida-teen-221101699.html). means you should never have been a po, should not continue to be one, and never be one again. You probably should also not be around kids. Or pets. ---
**Author:** ![UCBearcats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/77aa72/32.png) [@UCBearcats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UCBearcats)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2019, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14682 "2019-04-21T15:17:43Z")
Better hiring. Better training. More accountability. More consequences. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=733) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=735)