# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 737
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2019, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14723 "2019-05-16T20:34:13Z")
[What the fuck happened in Appleton, Wisconsin?](https://apnews.com/9bbb0beca21a4a16986ebacc4a430d13) > [@](#): > > A call to assist a man thought to be having a medical emergency on a bus escalated into a shooting that ended with the man and an Appleton firefighter dead and two others hurt, authorities said Thursday. > > The incident began at around 5:30 p.m. Wednesday as police, firefighters and an ambulance went to help a 47-year-old man arriving in downtown Appleton on a bus from out of the area, police said. > > The responders gave medical help to the man, who eventually left the bus and started walking toward a nearby library, police said. > > “While attending to the male, believed to be from the Wausau area, the incident escalated into shots being fired,” police said in a statement. > > Firefighter Mitch Lundgaard, a 14-year veteran, was killed. A female bystander and an Appleton police officer were also hit. The woman was hospitalized in stable condition, and the officer was treated and released. > > The 47-year-old man died at a hospital from his injuries, police said. > > Police didn’t immediately respond to a message seeking additional details. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2019, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14724 "2019-05-16T20:45:59Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > [Baytown, Texas](https://apnews.com/8816f819dc2948eca957d2aa7ffbd6f7): [More on this story today](https://apnews.com/e8dedf270cc0438dad2dce0fdf8c1ffe): > [@](#): > > A Houston-area police officer knew his neighbor suffered from mental illness and should have offered assistance when that was apparent, but instead he fatally shot the 44-year-old woman, a lawyer for the victim’s family said Thursday. > > Pamela Turner had struggled with paranoid schizophrenia since her diagnosis in 2005, and may have been in crisis the night she was killed, attorney Ben Crump said during a press conference. > [@](#): > > The officer — who police have not identified by name — was portrayed as the aggressor Thursday, with Turner’s family saying he approached her as she headed to her home in the same apartment complex where the officer lived. > > “She was a lady who had mental health issues. What she needed was a helping hand from the police officer. Instead she got five bullets,” Crump said. > [@](#): > > [22-year-old daughter Chelsie] Rubin said she asked a Baytown police officer sometime after the shooting if the department was aware of her mother’s illness and was told they were. I’ve never seen a picture of this cop, but in my head he has the face of Daniel Holtzclaw. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2019, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14725 "2019-05-16T22:21:54Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > [What the fuck happened in Appleton, Wisconsin?](https://apnews.com/9bbb0beca21a4a16986ebacc4a430d13) The reporter should have waited to file this story till he could say who shot who. ---
**Author:** ![Orwell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/dfb087/32.png) [@Orwell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orwell)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2019, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14726 "2019-05-17T01:35:48Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > [A Houston-area police officer knew his neighbor suffered from mental illness and should have offered assistance when that was apparent, but instead he fatally shot the 44-year-old woman, a lawyer for the victim’s family said Thursday. > > Pamela Turner had struggled with paranoid schizophrenia since her diagnosis in 2005, and may have been in crisis the night she was killed, attorney Ben Crump said during a press conference. I have a friend who is a retired cop, and he loves to watch PD Live. It turns my stomach hearing his comments. While watching people who are clearly mentally I’ll, he casually suggests they should be tazed or shot. Never a mention of getting them help. That’s the mindset. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2019, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14727 "2019-05-17T06:26:07Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > The reporter should have waited to file this story till he could say who shot who. Yup. Not sure when/if the article was updated, but: Chief Todd Thomas said the man showed a handgun and exchanged shots with the police officers. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2019, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14728 "2019-05-17T10:40:52Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > She didn’t just give birth in jail; she gave birth by herself, in the cell, over 5 hours after jail employees knew she was in labor. The staff didn’t even call a doctor until four hours after she started banging on her cell door calling for help, and when they did call, the doctor didn’t get there for almost another two hours, by which time she was holding the baby in her arms. This is a woman with schizophrenia and bipolar disorder. > > And, as I predicted when I first saw the link to the story, she was being held on a drug possession charge. It’s not completely clear, but from the way her case is described in the _New York Times_ story, it seems like she is being held in jail while awaiting trial. If that’s true, the most likely scenario is that this woman, who probably presents no public threat and little or no risk of flight, is being held in jail on a possession charge because she can’t afford the bail or bond that would be necessary to secure her release pending her court date. > > The bail/bond system in the United States is, in a large number of cases, little more than a penalty for being poor. In too many jurisdictions, poor people spend weeks or months in jail without having been convicted of anything, while people with money go home for the same or even worse crimes because they can afford the bond. > > And [here’s a story](https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/07/health/jail-births-wellpath-ccs-invs/index.html) about the private healthcare company charged with administering health care in the Broward County jails. > > > [@](#): > > > > A CNN analysis of federal court records over the past five years shows that the company has been at the center of lawsuits involving at least six different facilities. The lawsuits allege that pregnant women have been subjected to inhumane and dangerous conditions and treatment that in some cases have allegedly led to miscarriages and infant deaths. > > > > Public records also reveal how at least one county that hired the company found medical staff had given Librium, a powerful benzodiazepine, or tranquilizer, to multiple pregnant inmates. Librium’s label recommends against the use of the drug during pregnancy because of potential risk to the fetus. I’m quoting this because such stories should get more attention. And the “conservatives” who pretend to be pro-Life should be clamoring for those fetus abusers to get charged with assault or attempted murder. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2019, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14729 "2019-05-18T14:20:36Z")
I hope, septimus, you have not ceased pulmonary function while waiting for this to happen. Surely you should know keeping ‘those people’ in their place trumps (ha!) any fetal right to life. ---
**Author:** ![racepug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@racepug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/racepug)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2019, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14730 "2019-05-18T14:24:48Z")
I wouldn’t call myself a “cop hater” but I think that the law enforcement profession is like any other: you’re gonna have a range of employees ranging from exemplary to horrible. I just don’t understand people who give cops a pass on everything when it’s clear that there are some folks in law enforcement who simply shouldn’t be. Period. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2019, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14731 "2019-05-18T14:33:43Z")
> [@racepug](#): > > I wouldn’t call myself a “cop hater” but I think that the law enforcement profession is like any other: you’re gonna have a range of employees ranging from exemplary to horrible. I just don’t understand people who give cops a pass on everything when it’s clear that there are some folks in law enforcement who simply shouldn’t be. Period. Actually, I think it’s quite easy to understand. First off, the people who give cops a pass also give soldiers a pass for whatever horrible thing they do to “the enemy”. Well, as far as those people are concerned, cops only deal out heavy-handed consequences (if I may be euphemistic) to “the enemy”. As the enemy is dehumanized in their view, and worse yet, brought that dehumanization on themselves, again in their view, well, obviously, the enemy deserves it. What’s harder, apparently, to understand is how keeping soldiers and cops in line, having them deal with everyone in a legal, professional manner is a benefit to society. Now wait for the idiots to come by and tell me I have no idea what it’s like in the military and that I’m some kind of ivory tower libtard. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2019, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14732 "2019-05-19T23:19:24Z")
…this one is just so fucked up. [https://indyweek.com/news/wake/the-garner-cops-mikisa-thompson-malcolm-x/](https://indyweek.com/news/wake/the-garner-cops-mikisa-thompson-malcolm-x/) > > > Leigh Tauss @LeighTauss For those that don’t want to click through here’s the headline: “Garner Cops Raided a Black Woman’s Home, Seized Her Phones and Computers, and Charged Her With Loudly Playing Malcolm X Speeches”. When did they do the raid? Midnight. Hours after they had already issued an ordnance. 9 cops. Full search of the house, just in case she had guns. Because of a phone call from her (white) neighbor. A neighbor who by the way, a few weeks ago, dog killed the black women’s dog. The police seized a laptop, a macbook, a monitor, seven iphones, computer speakers, a fucking alarm clock and charging cables. Full video of the raid available on the twitter link. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2019, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14733 "2019-05-19T23:35:15Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …this one is just so fucked up. > > [https://indyweek.com/news/wake/the-garner-cops-mikisa-thompson-malcolm-x/](https://indyweek.com/news/wake/the-garner-cops-mikisa-thompson-malcolm-x/) > [https://twitter.com/greg\_doucette/status/1129500157119258625](https://twitter.com/greg_doucette/status/1129500157119258625) …I hadn’t read the entire twitter thread when I posted this, but a recent update. > > [@](#): > > Family has fled their home and is living out of a hotel. First court date on the criminal charge is next month. Well fuck. Well done Garner Police: making America Great Again. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![UCBearcats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/77aa72/32.png) [@UCBearcats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UCBearcats)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2019, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14734 "2019-05-20T16:23:55Z")
> **[Video: Dover police seen punching suspect in the face as he was restrained on...](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2019/05/20/video-police-punched-restrained-man-face-dover-new-jersey/3739581002/)** > > The officers can be seen punching suspect Cyprian Luke in the face while he is pinned to the ground. He was arrested on assault and other charges. New Jersey officers can be seen punching Cyprian Luke in the face while he is pinned to the ground. He was arrested on assault and other charges. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2019, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14735 "2019-05-20T18:59:21Z")
The [California Assembly is looking into it](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2019/05/18/police-shootings-california-could-limit-when-officers-shoot-kill/3698597002/), \*At issue is Assembly Bill 392, known as the California Act to Save Lives, which would put the onus on officers to justify discharging their weapon, shifting the standard from “reasonable” – as defined by the Supreme Court’s Graham v Connor ruling in 1989 – to “necessary.” That means that, under the proposed bill, police must feel confident it is necessary to shoot to protect themselves or others from danger, or they could be prosecuted for killing a person. … California has the highest percentage of police shootings per 100,000 people among states with more than 8 million residents, said Seth Stoughton, a former police officer … (Assembly member Tom) Lackey (a 28 year CHP veteran) said there is a problem exists with policing protocols, which have resulted in the high-profile shooting deaths of civilians such as Stephon Clark, a Sacramento man who was killed by police officers in March 2018 while carrying only a cellphone. “But this bill isn’t the solution to that problem,” he said, warning that the new policy could lead to tragic results for officers. “You change the policy midstream, and you’ll cause officers to think before reacting, and that time gap is going to be deadly.”\* Thinking before acting? Inconceivable! ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2019, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14736 "2019-05-20T19:08:11Z")
I bet gun people will oppose this law, because then it might become “necessary” before they can shoot people, instead of just “reasonable” ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2019, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14737 "2019-05-21T03:33:14Z")
> [@Folacin](#): > > I don’t see the controversy over her still being in jail? There are lots of people with children in jail. Now, I don’t think she should have given birth there, but assuming she was arrested/held for good cause, putting her butt back in jail once she was medically cleared seems justifiable. I’m a bit behind the times with this thread, but I was just thinking about this case and wondering if she bit off the umbilical cord after she gave birth in the cell alone. Folacin, what about the placenta? After she passed all the afterbirth and it was still attached to her child, what do you think she did with it? It sounds like the doctor didn’t arrive until an hour after her child was born so I think these questions are valid. While I agree with you about criminals being in jail, I am curious what do you think about that? ---
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2019, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14738 "2019-05-21T12:44:19Z")
> [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](#): > > I’m a bit behind the times with this thread, but I was just thinking about this case and wondering if she bit off the umbilical cord after she gave birth in the cell alone. Folacin, what about the placenta? After she passed all the afterbirth and it was still attached to her child, what do you think she did with it? It sounds like the doctor didn’t arrive until an hour after her child was born so I think these questions are valid. While I agree with you about criminals being in jail, I am curious what do you think about that? Not sure what part of my post you are responding to here. I specifically said “I don’t think she should have given birth there”, so all the comments above seem non-responsive? I just thought that putting her back in jail after the birth (assuming good cause to put her there in the first place) was not out of line. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2019, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14739 "2019-05-21T13:50:04Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I bet gun people will oppose this law, because then it might become “necessary” before they can shoot people, instead of just “reasonable” Sort of - it might be “reasonable” to shoot someone even if it turns out later not to be “necessary”. I.e. it turns out the gun wasn’t loaded, so it wasn’t necessary to shoot. > [@Oliver Wendell Holmes](#): > > Detached reflection cannot be demanded in the presence of an uplifted knife. Apparently some of the dimwits in the CA Assembly think it should be. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2019, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14740 "2019-05-21T13:53:16Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Sort of - it might be “reasonable” to shoot someone even if it turns out later not to be “necessary”. I.e. it turns out the gun wasn’t loaded, so it wasn’t necessary to shoot. Even I wouldn’t use that as a reason to condemn shooting someone. I’m perfectly fine with “I shot him because he had a clearly recognizable gun pointed at me” I’m not fine with “I shot him because he had something in his hand and I was afraid” ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2019, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14741 "2019-05-21T14:28:25Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Even I wouldn’t use that as a reason to condemn shooting someone. > > I’m perfectly fine with “I shot him because he had a clearly recognizable gun pointed at me” > > I’m not fine with “I shot him because he had something in his hand and I was afraid” But that means that _ **you** _ are using a “reasonable” standard rather than a standard of “necessary”. If the gun wasn’t loaded (or it was a very realistic replica gun with the orange tip painted black) then it wasn’t actually “necessary” for the cop (or the ordinary gun owner) to shoot, even if it may have been “reasonable” at the time for them to do so. The real issue is clawing back the legal term of art “reasonable”, which clearly has become pretty damned “_ **un** _reasonable” as applied to police officers. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2019, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/14742 "2019-05-21T14:43:50Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > But that means that _ **you** _ are using a “reasonable” standard rather than a standard of “necessary”. If the gun wasn’t loaded (or it was a very realistic replica gun with the orange tip painted black) then it wasn’t actually “necessary” for the cop (or the ordinary gun owner) to shoot, even if it may have been “reasonable” at the time for them to do so. That seems to be determining the necessity after the fact. I wouldn’t advocate for that either. I’m fine with making one of the definitions of “necessary” in this context as “Pointed a clearly recognizable gun at me” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=736) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=738)