# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 758
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2019, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15143 "2019-09-23T15:13:34Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Because you know as well as I do that it will make no difference whatever. Anyone who is dumb enough to fall for the “racist cop shoots kid for riding his bike” isn’t going to be willing/capable of comprehending even the fact that the narrative as presented is stupid. > > Like I said, you aren’t going to let the facts get in the way of your outrage. That doesn’t mean they aren’t facts - it just means you would rather have your grievance. Have fun with it. Nice rationalization for your dishonesty, shitbird. I notice you’re not even denying that you’ll take the cop’s word, no matter what, in situations like this. I guess it doesn’t even worry you when they have a body camera and leave it off during a contact. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2019, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15144 "2019-09-23T15:24:17Z")
Why even have a camera? What a joke. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2019, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15145 "2019-09-23T15:51:54Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > Please post a link to said facts. I used [this](https://www.scribd.com/document/426502282/Mppd-Ois-Decision-9-18-19-1#fullscreen&from_embed) - the report from the DA about why she isn’t pressing charges. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2019, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15146 "2019-09-23T16:03:03Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I used [this](https://www.scribd.com/document/426502282/Mppd-Ois-Decision-9-18-19-1#fullscreen&from_embed) - the report from the DA about why she isn’t pressing charges. Sorry, trying to access from work and that site is blocked. Could you copy and paste the relevant sections? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2019, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15147 "2019-09-23T16:09:00Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > Sorry, trying to access from work and that site is blocked. Could you copy and paste the relevant sections? It’s a 23 page document. What do you want to see? > [@](#): > > At approximately 8:00 pm, Mr. West and several other young people were in a car that had been reported as stolen from Racine when Kenosha Police located and tried to stop the car West was one of the people who ran and wasn’t caught. There is a picture of him on a security camera running. Later, the cop pulls up on a person on a bike with no light on. He tries to get the person to stop, but the bicyclist rides away. Eventually he gets off the bike. > [@](#): > > Sergeant Giese aimed the Taser at Mr. West and deployed it, but the prongs did not make contact with Mr. West. What more do you want? The newspaper article doesn’t mention any of this. The DA report is pretty substantial. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2019, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15148 "2019-09-23T16:12:59Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Later, the cop pulls up on a person on a bike with no light on. He tries to get the person to stop, but the bicyclist rides away. Eventually he gets off the bike. At the time this particular cop was chasing this bicycle rider, did he know that this person was part of the earlier group that is accused of stealing a car? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2019, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15149 "2019-09-23T16:34:01Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > At the time this particular cop was chasing this bicycle rider, did he know that this person was part of the earlier group that is accused of stealing a car? No. Read the report. > [@](#): > > He could not see who the operator of the bike was when he first saw it, but could tell that the bike was operating without lights, as required after darkness. Additionally, Sergeant Giese was aware that since school had ended for the summer, Mt. Pleasant was experiencing problems with vehicle break-ins and quality of life issues. _:shrugs:_ Which is why cites don’t help. You won’t read anything for fear of the emotional cost of doublethink. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2019, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15150 "2019-09-23T16:36:23Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > At the time this particular cop was chasing this bicycle rider, did he know that this person was part of the earlier group that is accused of stealing a car? No. Here’s the relevant section from the DA’s report, which I linked in my post earlier today: > [@](#): > > He could not see who the operator of the bike was when he first saw it, but could tell that the bike was operating without lights, as required after darkness. Additionally, Sergeant Giese was aware that since school had ended for the summer, Mt. Pleasant was experiencing problems with vehicle break-ins and quality of life issues. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2019, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15151 "2019-09-23T16:39:08Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > No. Read the report. > _:shrugs:_ > > Which is why cites don’t help. You won’t read anything for fear of the emotional cost of doublethink. > > Regards, > Shodan So the reason for the chase and the attempted tazing was because the lights weren’t working. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2019, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15152 "2019-09-23T17:07:04Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > So the reason for the chase and the attempted tazing was because the lights weren’t working. > [@](#): > > Additionally, Sergeant Giese was aware that since school had ended for the summer, Mt. Pleasant was experiencing problems with vehicle break-ins and quality of life issues. There is no functional difference between someone who can’t read, and who won’t read. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2019, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15153 "2019-09-23T17:11:53Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > There is no functional difference between someone who can’t read, and who won’t read. > > Regards, > Shodan How about people who will accept any excuse from the authorities as long as the right people are shot down? What pathetic excuse for a human being would accept "I tried to taze, chase and shoot a human being because “quality of life issues”? What the flying fuck does that even mean? ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2019, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15154 "2019-09-23T17:37:43Z")
Hm. > [@](#): > > Additionally, Sergeant Giese was aware that since school had ended for the summer, Mt. Pleasant was experiencing problems with vehicle break-ins and quality of life issues. Sounds to me like a get out of jail free card for cops who want to hassle any black kid they want. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2019, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15155 "2019-09-23T17:40:07Z")
Do crime stats alter what constitutes probable cause? ---
**Author:** ![Orwell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/dfb087/32.png) [@Orwell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orwell)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2019, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15156 "2019-09-23T17:42:21Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > Do crime stats alter what constitutes probable cause? He looked nervous and appeared furtive. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2019, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15157 "2019-09-23T17:46:20Z")
Maybe he knew the cop turned his body cam off. Good reason to be nervous. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2019, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15158 "2019-09-23T17:50:28Z")
> [@Orwell](#): > > He looked nervous and appeared furtive. As do I, an old white guy, anytime I interact with Po-Po. ---
**Author:** ![MikeF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@MikeF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeF)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2019, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15159 "2019-09-23T18:00:26Z")
I think the idea is for the police to check out people who might be acting suspiciously (riding a bike w/o lights in the dark at 1:30 am) in an area that has been experiencing vehicle break ins. If the police approach such a person and they flee, the officer has a reasonable suspicion that they are up to no good and may use reasonable force to stop the person. The officer tried the taser and it didn’t work. The officer sees the suspect drop and then try to retrieve a gun, inches from his hand. What, in your opinion, should the officer have done next? It would be better if the camera was on but sometimes things happen quickly and turning the camera on isn’t the officer’s top priority. It may be your’s, but its not his. I feel for the father’s loss but his statement, “I want a thorough investigation done, and I also want to see Eric Giese locked up,” shows that is mind is/was already made up. Much like many of the posters in this thread. BTW, it appears that a thorough investigation was already done, leading to the 23 page report referenced above. Unfortunately, sometimes people behave in a manner that ends up with them being justifiably shot and killed by the police. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2019, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15160 "2019-09-23T18:06:30Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > Do crime stats alter what constitutes probable cause? To be fair, he didn’t need probable cause based on the crime stats. If the law requires that a bike have lights after dark, then he’s legally justified in pulling over a bike running without lights after dark, no matter how much of a bullshit move that might seem to us. In my opinion, he would have been on better legal (and perhaps moral) grounds if he had just stuck to the lack of lights as the reason behind the stop. Because being aware of the season and the school year, and having a general sense of crime rates and quality of life, doesn’t constitute reasonable suspicion or probable cause. If the kid had lights on his bike, and the officer had pulled him over and detained just based on his generalized suspicions, there’s a decent chance that the stop would be ruled unconstitutional. If he had said, “I pulled him over because he didn’t have a light on his bike,” then we might argue about whether this sort of minor infraction even justifies the stop, but he’s at least legally in the clear. But if he’s pulling over black kids largely because it’s summer and there have been some crimes, then that’s bullshit, and I’d hope that even a fucking troglodyte liar like **Shodan** would recognize the fact. I’d be interested to know how often this officer pulls over white adults who ride bikes without lights at night. Come to think of it, that might be an interesting topic for a public records request to the Mount Pleasant Police Department. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2019, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15161 "2019-09-23T18:16:08Z")
Part A: > [@MikeF](#): > > The officer tried the taser and it didn’t work. The officer sees the suspect drop and then try to retrieve a gun, inches from his hand. What, in your opinion, should the officer have done next? Part B: > [@MikeF](#): > > It would be better if the camera was on but sometimes things happen quickly and turning the camera on isn’t the officer’s top priority. It may be your’s, but its not his. There’s a massive gap between these two statements here that demonstrate your idiocy. You, like **Shodan** , appear to be taking for granted that the description of events in the first paragraph, above, is the God’s-honest truth. But because he didn’t activate the body camera, we have no way of knowing whether that’s actually the case. All we have is the word of a person who, if things went down differently, has every reason to lie. As I said earlier in this thread, and have repeated a couple of times, I used to think that we should, absent compelling evidence to the contrary, automatically believe police accounts of their actions. My own step-father was a cop for his whole career, and my mother worked in a civilian capacity for a police department as her last job before she retired. But I was hopelessly naive. The evidence shows that cops are just as capable of lying as any member of the public if their job or their liberty is at stake. This thread has examples of police who shot suspects in the back, lied about it, and were proven to be lying by video evidence. This thread has examples of police who planted drugs on people they wanted to arrest, and were caught by their own body cameras. This thread has examples of police stealing money and valuables from people they arrested. To be quite frank, if your default position in the modern world is that a cop’s uncorroborated account of an event like this should be taken at face value, then you’re too stupid to be part of the conversation. ---
**Author:** ![MikeF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@MikeF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeF)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2019, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15162 "2019-09-23T18:16:46Z")
> [@Folacin](#): > > How many cops will instigate a foot chase after a Taser failure for someone riding a bike without a headlight? Any cop who is doing his job. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=757) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=759)