# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 759
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2019, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15163 "2019-09-23T18:25:29Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > How about people who will accept any excuse from the authorities as long as the right people are shot down? I don’t know - maybe if one ever shows we can debate them. > [@](#): > > What pathetic excuse for a human being would accept "I tried to taze, chase and shoot a human being because “quality of life issues”? What the flying fuck does that even mean? Just out of curiosity - did the part about “break ins” even register on your retinas? Let alone on your brain. > [@mhendo](#): > > If he had said, “I pulled him over because he didn’t have a light on his bike,” then we might argue about whether this sort of minor infraction even justifies the stop, but he’s at least legally in the clear. What if he said “I tried to pull him over because he didn’t have a light on his bike, but he took off and refused to stop, and then he pulled a gun”? Because that is what he said, and he is, in fact, legally in the clear. You quoted this part of the DA’s report - > [@](#): > > He could not see who the operator of the bike was when he first saw it, but could tell that the bike was operating without lights, as required after darkness. Is it your allegation that the cop could actually see that West was black, and that was why he stopped him? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2019, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15164 "2019-09-23T18:31:39Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Because that is what he said, and he is, in fact, legally in the clear. Never suggested otherwise. In fact, if you look at my previous post, you’ll see that I quite clearly said that the stop was legal. Lucky you’re not a cop, I guess, because whatever bullets you weren’t putting into black kids you’d probably be shooting into your own feet. > [@Shodan](#): > > You quoted this part of the DA’s report - Is it your allegation that the cop could actually see that West was black, and that was why he stopped him? Last week, I was walking down the street after dark. I saw a guy on the other side of the street. I couldn’t see who it was, but I could see that he was black. Same with the white guy I saw five minutes later. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2019, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15165 "2019-09-23T18:38:19Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Part A: Part B:There’s a massive gap between these two statements here that demonstrate your idiocy. You, like **Shodan** , appear to be taking for granted that the description of events in the first paragraph, above, is the God’s-honest truth. But because he didn’t activate the body camera, we have no way of knowing whether that’s actually the case. All we have is the word of a person who, if things went down differently, has every reason to lie. You mean apart from actually finding the gun on the scene. > [@](#): > > Found on the scene when processed were three shell casings belonging to Sergeant Giese and an SCCY CPX-2, 9mm semiautomatic handgun. The SCCY CPS-2 handgun was the weapon carried by Mr. West. It was originally purchased by a woman who resides in Milwaukee. The purchaser was interviewed and reported the gun had been taken from her home three years prior to police speaking to her. No doubt the police stole the gun, hung onto it for three years, and then gave it to Sgt. Giese in hopes that eventually he would run into West so he could shoot him and plant it. The conspiracy goes deeper than you think. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2019, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15166 "2019-09-23T18:40:15Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Last week, I was walking down the street after dark. I saw a guy on the other side of the street. I couldn’t see who it was, but I could see that he was black. Same with the white guy I saw five minutes later. [del]Bodycam footage[/del] pics or it didn’t happen. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![MikeF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@MikeF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeF)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2019, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15167 "2019-09-23T18:40:51Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Part A: Part B:There’s a massive gap between these two statements here that demonstrate your idiocy. You, like **Shodan** , appear to be taking for granted that the description of events in the first paragraph, above, is the God’s-honest truth. But because he didn’t activate the body camera, we have no way of knowing whether that’s actually the case. All we have is the word of a person who, if things went down differently, has every reason to lie. > > As I said earlier in this thread, and have repeated a couple of times, I used to think that we should, absent compelling evidence to the contrary, automatically believe police accounts of their actions. My own step-father was a cop for his whole career, and my mother worked in a civilian capacity for a police department as her last job before she retired. But I was hopelessly naive. The evidence shows that cops are just as capable of lying as any member of the public if their job or their liberty is at stake. This thread has examples of police who shot suspects in the back, lied about it, and were proven to be lying by video evidence. This thread has examples of police who planted drugs on people they wanted to arrest, and were caught by their own body cameras. This thread has examples of police stealing money and valuables from people they arrested. > > To be quite frank, if your default position in the modern world is that a cop’s uncorroborated account of an event like this should be taken at face value, then you’re too stupid to be part of the conversation. First, I see that you didn’t answer my question. What should have the cop done at that point? With your vast law enforcement back ground, you must have some ideas. Second, is there some evidence that I am unaware of that contradicts the officer’s version of events? If so, please show it to me. Or was it all buried in some vast conspiracy? Don’t tell me what my default position is, I’ll tell you. My default position is: Don’t jump to any conclusions until the evidence is in." In this case, an investigation was done and a lengthy report was issued. Sorry it doesn’t fit your narrative. You are making noise about other posts in this long thread say that have nothing to do with this particular case. They may be relevant but they are certainly not material. If you don’t know the difference, look it up. I’m talking about this specific incident. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2019, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15168 "2019-09-23T18:46:47Z")
> [@MikeF](#): > > First, I see that you didn’t answer my question. What should have the cop done at that point? With your vast law enforcement back ground, you must have some ideas. Maybe he shouldn’t have been hassling the kid riding the bike in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2019, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15169 "2019-09-23T18:58:08Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > In my opinion, he would have been on better legal (and perhaps moral) grounds if he had just stuck to the lack of lights as the reason behind the stop. Because being aware of the season and the school year, and having a general sense of crime rates and quality of life, doesn’t constitute reasonable suspicion or probable cause. If the kid had lights on his bike, and the officer had pulled him over and detained just based on his generalized suspicions, there’s a decent chance that the stop would be ruled unconstitutional. > > If he had said, “I pulled him over because he didn’t have a light on his bike,” then we might argue about whether this sort of minor infraction even justifies the stop, but he’s at least legally in the clear. But if he’s pulling over black kids largely because it’s summer and there have been some crimes, then that’s bullshit, and I’d hope that even a fucking troglodyte liar like **Shodan** would recognize the fact. I’d be interested to know how often this officer pulls over white adults who ride bikes without lights at night. Come to think of it, that might be an interesting topic for a public records request to the Mount Pleasant Police Department. Actually, it was not the cop but the DA’s decision that asserted these. AFAIK, the cop did say that he pulled West over only because of the light. If he has stated otherwise, I have not seen the cite. **manson1972** has asserted that West was part of group in a stolen car earlier that night and that there is photographic evidence. If that is true, then it does go a ways to backing up the officer’s version of events. Or at least, the DA’s decision not to file charges. He still shoulda had his body cam on. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2019, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15170 "2019-09-23T19:55:50Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Because you know as well as I do that it will make no difference whatever. Anyone who is dumb enough to fall for the “racist cop shoots kid for riding his bike” isn’t going to be willing/capable of comprehending even the fact that the narrative as presented is stupid. > > Like I said, you aren’t going to let the facts get in the way of your outrage. That doesn’t mean they aren’t facts - it just means you would rather have your grievance. Have fun with it. > > Regards, > Shodan Projection 101 here folks. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2019, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15171 "2019-09-23T20:11:28Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > **manson1972** has asserted that West was part of group in a stolen car earlier that night and that there is photographic evidence. Just to be clear, to the extent that I’ve asserted anything, it’s that the DA’s report asserts that West was part of the group. ---
**Author:** ![MikeF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@MikeF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeF)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2019, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15172 "2019-09-24T13:04:24Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Maybe he shouldn’t have been hassling the kid riding the bike in the first place. So, in an area that has been suffering break-ins, a cop shouldn’t check out (hassle, in your terms) someone who is riding a bike without lights at 1:30 am and when he runs not chase him? In what world do you live? Are one of those people who think the police should just sit at the station and wait for calls to come in? ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2019, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15173 "2019-09-24T13:14:51Z")
An Orlando police officer who was working as a school resource officer arrested two _six year olds_ and charged them with battery, put them into the back of a squad car, and booked them. Thankfully, he has been fired: > **[Orlando Officer Is Terminated After Arresting 6-Year-Olds (Published 2019)](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/23/us/6-year-old-orlando-florida.html)** > > The charges against both children are being dropped, the state attorney said on Monday. One of them was a little girl who had kicked her teacher. I’m sure the fact that the little girl was black had nothing to do with her arrest. In my lily-white town, kids are arrested all the time for having meltdowns in school\. The charges against the kids have been dropped, but that must have been one traumatic experience! ---
**Author:** ![Isosleepy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/isosleepy/32/479_2.png) [@Isosleepy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isosleepy)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2019, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15174 "2019-09-24T13:27:09Z")
Officer was fired. It’s even the headline of the article you link to. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2019, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15175 "2019-09-24T13:30:31Z")
> [@Isosleepy](#): > > Officer was fired. It’s even the headline of the article you link to. Yes. That’s why I wrote: “Thankfully, he has been fired.” ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2019, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15176 "2019-09-24T13:40:49Z")
> [@MikeF](#): > > So, in an area that has been suffering break-ins, a cop shouldn’t check out (hassle, in your terms) someone who is riding a bike without lights at 1:30 am Check out what? A person riding a bike? Is that a criminal act or something? Is it reasonable to think person riding a bike without lights has committed a break in? Is it probable (\>50% chance) that a person riding a bike at night has committed a break in? Or is it reasonable and probable that the person riding at night is just trying to get somewhere on a bike that doesn’t have an aftermarket light attached to it? This whole neighborhood break in schtick is just an excuse that let’s cops hassle literally anyone they want, any time they want. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2019, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15177 "2019-09-24T14:43:36Z")
Aye; what other transgressions would get that kind of treatment? A car not signaling a lane change? How about a person crossing the street outside a marked crosswalk at 1:30am? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2019, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15178 "2019-09-24T16:06:16Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > Amber Guyger, the Dallas cop who shot and killed a black man in his own apartment has been indicted for murder. The indictment says she “knowingly and intentionally” shot him. > [Dallas Cop Amber Guyger Has Been Indicted On Murder Charges For Shooting Botham Jean](https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/tasneemnashrulla/botham-jean-murder-dallas-police-officer-indicted?utm_source=dynamic&utm_campaign=bffbbuzzfeednews&ref=bffbbuzzfeednews&fbclid=IwAR3L9UkuOV_KF9xYvHf_yv-TzXt3T8_TvPa2x0Rq7DGfeUqq3vNf17O6pLQ) FWIW, Officer Guyger’s trial for murder is going on right now in Dallas. Live stream here. [Day 2 Testimony in Amber Guyger Murder Trial Focuses on Body Camera Video and Guyger’s 911 Call – NBC 5 Dallas-Fort Worth](https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/Watch-Live-Amber-Guyger-Murder-Trial-Day-2-561148091.html) IMHO, there’s a decent chance she is going to be found Not Guilty of Murder. Which is damnably unfortunate for Mr. Jean’s family, as I think a charge of Manslaughter or Criminally Negligent Homicide would have resulted in a guilty verdict. It’s also unfortunate for the citizens of Dallas, as I doubt the citizenry will react to a not guilty verdict with detachment and indifference. My understanding is that the indictment only listed the culpable mental states for Murder, and did not list other mental states such as recklessness or negligence. AIU Texas law, though IANAL, the required mental state for lesser included offenses within Murder, like Manslaughter or Negligent Criminal Homicide, must be included within the indictment, in order for the prosecution to seek a jury charge for those offenses. See, [Havard v. State](https://www.courtlistener.com/opinion/2383701/havard-v-state/), 800 S.W.2d 195, 214-217 (Tex. Crim. App. 1990). Maybe things have changed since _Havard_, I dunno. Anyway, I thought you all might like to watch the trial as it unfolds. ---
**Author:** ![MikeF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@MikeF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeF)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2019, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15179 "2019-09-24T19:52:03Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Check out what? A person riding a bike? Is that a criminal act or something? > > Is it reasonable to think person riding a bike without lights has committed a break in? Is it probable (\>50% chance) that a person riding a bike at night has committed a break in? > > Or is it reasonable and probable that the person riding at night is just trying to get somewhere on a bike that doesn’t have an aftermarket light attached to it? > > This whole neighborhood break in schtick is just an excuse that let’s cops hassle literally anyone they want, any time they want. You’re kidding, right? First of all, it doesn’t have to be “probable” that someone is committing an offense before they can be questioned by the police. There only needs to be a reasonable suspicion that have committed an offense, are committing one or have just committed one. In this case the officer had reason to believe he was committing a traffic offense. He needed a legal reason to stop the guy and he had one. Even if the stop was a pretext to investigate the possibility of burglary, the courts have said that’s O.K. If you have a problem with that, take it up with the courts and legislature. You want the police to play by the rules and this officer, clearly, was. Apparently, that’s not good enough. If the cop stopped him and he said (truthfully), “I live right there and am heading home from work” that would, likely, have been the end of it. When the suspect fled, that certainly ramped things up. As is often the case, non-compliance at a lawful stop got the ball rolling. Is the cop supposed to say “Let me see here. There are break ins going on and this guy is fleeing from a lawful stop at 1:30 AM. But since its only a bike light violation, I should just let him go.”? If there were break ins going on in my neighborhood I’d want the police to check out everyone that they had a legal reason to. That is their job. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2019, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15180 "2019-09-24T20:19:26Z")
> [@MikeF](#): > > You’re kidding, right? I’m not kidding, bucko. > [@](#): > > There only needs to be a reasonable suspicion that have committed an offense, are committing one or have just committed one. What offense are we talking about here? Riding a bike or committing a break in? The only thing this cop actually had any evidence of is riding a bike. > [@](#): > > In this case the officer had reason to believe he was committing a traffic offense. He needed a legal reason to stop the guy and he had one. Even if the stop was a pretext to investigate the possibility of burglary, the courts have said that’s O.K. Fuck the courts. This pretext shit is why black kids get stopped all the time and white kids don’t. The pretext is the veneer that covers what’s actually going on, a cop hassling a kid on a bike for no reason other than biking while black. > [@](#): > > If you have a problem with that, take it up with the courts and legislature. You want the police to play by the rules and this officer, clearly, was. Apparently, that’s not good enough. It ain’t good enough when you’re punching holes in kids with your gun. No, your pretext for the stop isn’t good enough. He stopped the kid because he suspected him of a crime other than biking without a headlight, suspected him because he’s young and black, suspected him with no evidence other than there were some break ins in the area (like that’s not true fucking everywhere) and the young black kid is a good suspect. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2019, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15181 "2019-09-25T12:50:31Z")
Some years ago a black co-worker came in seething because he’d been pulled over on his way to work. The reason? There’d been a burglary by a black man about a mile away some hours before. “So, if he’d been wearing a cowboy hat you’re gonna stop everybody you see with a cowboy hat?” he asked the cop. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2019, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15182 "2019-09-25T13:43:59Z")
> [@DesertDog](#): > > Some years ago a black co-worker came in seething because he’d been pulled over on his way to work. The reason? There’d been a burglary by a black man about a mile away some hours before. “So, if he’d been wearing a cowboy hat you’re gonna stop everybody you see with a cowboy hat?” he asked the cop. What did the cop say? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=758) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=760)