# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 763
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2019, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15243 "2019-09-26T19:37:22Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > Well, it’s good that we can find some common ground. I’m sure we can find much common ground on the “controversial encounters…” topic. I just don’t believe that THIS particular case (West) is all that controversial. ---
**Author:** ![MikeF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@MikeF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeF)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2019, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15244 "2019-09-26T19:47:08Z")
“He stopped the kid because he suspected him of a crime other than biking without a headlight, **suspected him because he’s young and black** ” and you know this… how? As I said before, pretext stops are allowed. And other cases ARE irrelevant. They would certainly be inadmissible in court as such. I know, fuck the courts. There is nothing, not one single thing, that contradicts the officers versions of events and you still don’t believe him. Show me any evidence at all that this was an unlawful stop or use of deadly force. The fact that he didn’t turn on his camera is not such evidence. You say we should not just take the officers word. Did you somehow miss the report on the investigation of this incident? Did it rely solely on the officer’s statement? I know, fuck the DA. The whole camera thing is a red herring. In order for it to be otherwise one would have to assume that the cop suspected something bad was likely to happen and he didn’t want it on tape so he made a conscious decision to not turn it on. If the cop had a history of not tuning on his camera and then being accused of excessive force, there might be something to it. I see no such evidence. Every officer I know that has a body cam wouldn’t work without it. They are great tools and show that the cops are doing the right thing in the vast majority of cases. Sometimes they forget to turn them on. Especially in evolving situations that pop up suddenly. It happens. Officers are disciplined for not turning them on. “It’s the middle of the night, you’re Black, and a cop is chasing after you after threatening to send police dogs to take you down…just because your bike light isn’t working. I can’t think of a single reason not to stop where there are no witnesses and let come what may.” Other than the fact that you have a gun and are riding a stolen bike and had earlier fled a stolen car. Not a single reason. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2019, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15245 "2019-09-26T19:58:17Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Were they claims that **Cheesesteak** made? He said that this - > [@](#): > > The cops shot somebody who was riding a stolen bike at 1:30am in an area with a lot of vehicle break-ins and other “quality of life” crimes, and when the cop tried to stop him he ran away, couldn’t be arrested with less-lethal means like a Tazer, and then pulled a gun and tried to kill the officer. was something I made up. So apparently he doesn’t believe that West was shot, that he was riding a stolen bike at 1:30am with no headlight, that there weren’t a high number of vehicle break-ins, the cop didn’t try to stop him, didn’t deploy his Tazer, and West didn’t pull a gun and didn’t try to shoot the cop. I thought the rule was 'when the facts are on your side, argue the facts. When the facts are against you, argue the law. When the facts and the law are against you, pound on the table." Except his version of pounding on the table is just say “fuck the facts and the law and fuck you”. > [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Our rights as Americans protect us from being stopped and searched because “sometimes people commit crimes, and since you’re a person, I should search you to see if you committed a crime”. You misspelled “fuck the courts”. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2019, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15246 "2019-09-27T15:50:13Z")
Remember Stephon Clark, the black guy who, unarmed, was shot and killed while in his grandmother’s backyard by police who were scairt of his cellphone? Well, the [Feds have decided to not pursue civil rights charges against the police.](https://ktla.com/2019/09/27/feds-decline-to-pursue-civil-rights-charges-against-sacramento-police-in-stephon-clark-shooting/) Sacramento police also announced Thursday their internal investigation did not find any policy or training violations. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2019, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15247 "2019-09-27T18:37:22Z")
Re: The Costco murder. Does anyone believe that if _a civilian_ untrained in dealing with stressful situations were to pull out a gun and shoot someone that attacked them, killing them and wounding two other _without any evidence of a weapon_ that they wouldn’t be charged with a crime? ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2019, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15248 "2019-09-27T18:41:03Z")
Southaven, Mississippi police were called out to a domestic violence call. They went to the wrong address, where they shot and killed the man inside. They are now, in written court documents, claiming that the man had no rights because he was undocumented. [https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Miss-town-claims-undocumented-man-killed-when-14472563.php](https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Miss-town-claims-undocumented-man-killed-when-14472563.php) ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2019, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15249 "2019-09-27T18:52:07Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Re: The Costco murder. > > Does anyone believe that if _a civilian_ untrained in dealing with stressful situations were to pull out a gun and shoot someone that attacked them, killing them and wounding two other _without any evidence of a weapon_ that they wouldn’t be charged with a crime? Of course untrained civilians are held to a higher standard. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2019, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15250 "2019-09-27T19:07:23Z")
> [@UCBearcats](#): > > This fucking sickens me that this neanderthal kills a guy and critically wounds his parents with no charges. He will probably get a medal and promotion when he gets back to work. The hits keep on coming… [Costco shooting: LAPD officer was 20 feet away when he opened fire, police say](https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/costco-shooting-lapd-officer-was-20-feet-away-when-he-opened-fire-police-say/ar-AAHWmPW) He was 20 feet away and fired at a man who was, by all accounts, moving away from him. He fired while seated on the ground. > [@](#): > > “My client was assaulted and attacked, and what he did was excusable and reasonable under the law,” Salzman said. “It is a terrible tragedy. We have two sets of parents trying to protect their child. Sal had no choice but to use deadly force to protect his young son and himself from assault.” 1. He obviously did not have a clear shot at his assailant, as he he hit two other people who standing right by him. Why no charges for shooting them? 2. He wasn’t so much protecting himself from assault. The assault had already occurred and the assailant was 20 feet away and being pulled further. 3. If it had been me, or anyone on this board instead of Sanchez, who pulled a legally carried gun and shot 3 people in a Costco under these circumstances, you can bet you ass we would be facing charges. One man with psychiatric problems dead, his parents badly wounded, the D.A. and the LAPD could give a shit. ---
**Author:** ![BeagleJesus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5daacb/32.png) [@BeagleJesus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeagleJesus)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2019, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15251 "2019-09-27T19:27:21Z")
> [@Orwell](#): > > I didn’t look around at all, nor do any cherry picking. I related a story about a close friend. I readily admitted that I believe that race is SOMETIMES, perhaps OFTEN a factor. I just don’t think it is ALWAYS a factor. How is that hard to understand? I think many police are willing to overstep their authority with a lot of people they deal with, black, brown, white or any other shade. I think the racial angle is overblown in this thread, but that doesn’t mean I don’t think it is indeed a factor in many instances. Your post made it obvious that you think the racial angle is overblown and that is what I took exception to. I fail to understand the point of bringing up the fact that white folks _sometimes, occasionally_ deal with these same issues if not to discount the ubiquitous experience black and latino people deal with on a regular basis. > [@Orwell](#): > > When have I ever expressed a tolerance for abusive police behavior? Point that out to me. You either have me confused with someone else, or you are completely mistaken. “You know, it’s not always about race. And sometimes there’s a legitimate reason to stop and question people. I don’t have a problem with that in many cases. Now, when someone gets shot or beaten, the hurdle of reasonableness is much, much higher.” Here you imply that when cops “stop and question” people without shooting them or beating them that is perfectly reasonable. I tried to explain to you that the whole “stop and question” bit has been used for decades to abuse people of color. My apologies but I thought this concept was easy to grasp. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2019, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15252 "2019-09-27T19:58:58Z")
> [@BeagleJesus](#): > > Here you imply that when cops “stop and question” people without shooting them or beating them that is perfectly reasonable. I tried to explain to you that the whole “stop and question” bit has been used for decades to abuse people of color. This seems strange. So, cops should NOT “stop and question” people? ---
**Author:** ![Orwell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/dfb087/32.png) [@Orwell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orwell)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2019, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15253 "2019-09-27T20:24:46Z")
> [@BeagleJesus](#): > > “You know, it’s not always about race. And \*\*sometimes there’s a legitimate reason \*\*to stop and question people. I don’t have a problem with that in many cases. Now, when someone gets shot or beaten, the hurdle of reasonableness is much, much higher.” > > Here you imply that when cops “stop and question” people without shooting them or beating them that is perfectly reasonable. I tried to explain to you that the whole “stop and question” bit has been used for decades to abuse people of color. > > My apologies but I thought this concept was easy to grasp. You are still misrepresenting what I posted. See bolded part above, which you ignored. Being black is not a legitimate reason. Is that clear enough? And, yes, I DO think the racial aspect is overblown in this thread, but that isn’t the same as saying it isn’t important or doesn’t happen. Do you think white people NEVER have controversial encounters with police? Especially people in poor urban or Appalachian neighborhoods? Do you only care about people with one skin tone? That would be the result of extrapolating from your comments. Perhaps that’s true, I don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2019, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15254 "2019-09-27T21:08:39Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > This seems strange. So, cops should NOT “stop and question” people? No, they should not stop and question people. They should stop and question people who they can articulate a clear reason for them to be suspected of committing a crime. Being in a neighborhood that had break ins is, IMHO, not a clear articulate reason. Now, if this cop tries to taze anyone on a bike who does not stop for having a headlight out, then he’s a fucking idiot, but not a racist idiot. Do we have any reports of him tazing a white kid on a bike? If he only tazes people on bikes with the light out in neighborhoods that have had break ins, then he’s just fishing. > [@Orwell](#): > > You are still misrepresenting what I posted. See bolded part above, which you ignored. Being black is not a legitimate reason. Is that clear enough? > > And, yes, I DO think the racial aspect is overblown in this thread, but that isn’t the same as saying it isn’t important or doesn’t happen. Do you think white people NEVER have controversial encounters with police? Especially people in poor urban or Appalachian neighborhoods? > > Do you only care about people with one skin tone? That would be the result of extrapolating from your comments. Perhaps that’s true, I don’t know. If we are going to treat black people more poorly than we treat white people, then as a white person, then I want black people to be treated better than they currently are treated so that I too, can expect better treatment. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2019, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15255 "2019-09-27T22:54:52Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > No, they should not stop and question people. They should stop and question people who they can articulate a clear reason for them to be suspected of committing a crime. You mean clearly seeing them riding a bike at night without a legally-mandated light? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2019, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15256 "2019-09-27T23:17:06Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > You mean clearly seeing them riding a bike at night without a legally-mandated light? Is bicycle safety something that usually merits tazering to enforce compliance? We have two things here, and it seems that they keep getting conflated, no matter how much effort goes into separating them. We have a person who was riding a bike with out a light at night. The actions of the officer seem to be excessive when seen as solely in response to the “criminal” ignoring bike safety laws. Then we have the “reason”, that there have been break ins in the area, and that somehow seems to justify extra scrutinizing. That is the part that I consider a fishing expedition. That is the part that can always be used to fall back on as an excuse. Had the bike’s light have been working, do you feel that the officer would have had cause to stop this person, due to the break ins? If not, then the only thing that the officer was stopping him for was bike safety, and I do not feel that the enforcement of bicycle safety merits violence. ---
**Author:** ![GreenHell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ea666f/32.png) [@GreenHell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenHell)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2019, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15257 "2019-09-28T12:29:37Z")
Maybe race isn’t as big a factor as is believed. Maybe American cops kill a lot of (often unarmed) white folks, too. Nah, I gave it a shot and that just doesn’t seem to make the situation any better. ---
**Author:** ![epbrown01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ba0ec/32.png) [@epbrown01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/epbrown01)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2019, 9:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15258 "2019-09-29T09:40:57Z")
> [@GreenHell](#): > > Maybe race isn’t as big a factor as is believed. Maybe American cops kill a lot of (often unarmed) white folks, too. It happens. In fact, it’s pretty much the only time a cop does time for killing a civilian. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2019, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15259 "2019-09-30T13:30:26Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Is bicycle safety something that usually merits tazering to enforce compliance? I would say no. Luckily, the cop didn’t taze him for not having a light on his bike. Let’s try a different scenario so I know where you are coming from: A cop sees a guy throw some trash on the ground. The cop walks up to talk to him and the guy takes off. In your opinion, what should the cop do at this point? ---
**Author:** ![74westy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/74westy/32/3950_2.png) [@74westy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/74westy)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2019, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15260 "2019-09-30T13:45:10Z")
What’s the guy’s race? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2019, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15261 "2019-09-30T13:57:28Z")
> [@74westy](#): > > What’s the guy’s race? Why does that matter? The question is what a cop SHOULD do in a poster’s opinion. ---
**Author:** ![wguy123](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wguy123/32/3161_2.png) [@wguy123](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wguy123)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2019, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15262 "2019-09-30T14:23:41Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > The hits keep on coming… > > [Costco shooting: LAPD officer was 20 feet away when he opened fire, police say](https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/costco-shooting-lapd-officer-was-20-feet-away-when-he-opened-fire-police-say/ar-AAHWmPW) > > He was 20 feet away and fired at a man who was, by all accounts, moving away from him. He fired while seated on the ground. > > 1. He obviously did not have a clear shot at his assailant, as he he hit two other people who standing right by him. Why no charges for shooting them? > > 2. He wasn’t so much protecting himself from assault. The assault had already occurred and the assailant was 20 feet away and being pulled further. > > 3. If it had been me, or anyone on this board instead of Sanchez, who pulled a legally carried gun and shot 3 people in a Costco under these circumstances, you can bet you ass we would be facing charges. > > One man with psychiatric problems dead, his parents badly wounded, the D.A. and the LAPD could give a shit. I don’t understand this at all. He murdered someone that was being pulled away. The person he murdered didn’t have a knife or a gun. The person he murdered was no longer a threat when he pulled the trigger 10 times. In the process of pulling the trigger 10 times, he mowed down three people. What the fuck? What is it we are missing that justifies not charging this murderous fucking asshole? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=762) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=764)