# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 770
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2019, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15383 "2019-10-14T13:05:10Z")
The NRA should screaming right now. But I have heard a peep out of them. I don’t expect we will hear anything out of them. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2019, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15384 "2019-10-14T13:54:30Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > I know from personal experience that by and large, Fort Worth cops, and Texas cops in general are Not Worth A Flying Fuck. They never were. Unfortunately, they seem to be worth a life. ☹ I just keep wracking my head – what the fuck was wrong with those officers? How do you shoot to resident on a WELFARE CALL before you even ring the doorbell? She should go to prison, of course. But there’s something grossly wrong with the department and whatever training they do. The whole damn department should be disarmed until major changes are made. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2019, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15385 "2019-10-14T14:04:27Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > … > If you’re a black person, possessing a gun in your own home makes you deserving of the death penalty. > … Even long before the police even go inside to find that there’s a gun in there. Disgusting that this happens in my country. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2019, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15386 "2019-10-14T14:04:27Z")
I think that anytime something like this happens, it shouldn’t be just the officer involved who gets cited; the captains who train them and the police chief should be held accountable in some way. Obviously, we can’t prosecute them criminally for offenses committed by other people, but we should have a way to demote and even terminate their employment. Otherwise there’s no systemic accountability. Individual accountability without systemic accountability means the machine replaces a part here and a part there, but it’s the system _in toto_ that is fucked. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2019, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15387 "2019-10-14T14:07:11Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Unfortunately, they seem to be worth a life. ☹ > > I just keep wracking my head – what the fuck was wrong with those officers? How do you shoot to resident on a WELFARE CALL before you even ring the doorbell? > > She should go to prison, of course. But there’s something grossly wrong with the department and whatever training they do. The whole damn department should be disarmed until major changes are made. It’s an institutionalized mentality that assumes that anyone an officer encounters on the street - you, me, or your neighbor - is a potential danger and that officers should be ready to shoot first and determine the facts later. Err on the side of death – someone else’s death. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2019, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15388 "2019-10-14T14:10:48Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > I think that anytime something like this happens, it shouldn’t be just the officer involved who gets cited; the captains who train them and the police chief should be held accountable in some way. Obviously, we can’t prosecute them criminally for offenses committed by other people, but we should have a way to demote and even terminate their employment. Otherwise there’s no systemic accountability. Individual accountability without systemic accountability means the machine replaces a part here and a part there, but it’s the system _in toto_ that is fucked. Ideally, that should not be necessary. Ideally, in a situation like this, the commanders and captains et al would review their training, identify the problem, and fix it themselves. As this does not seem to happen in the wake of unjustified shootings like this, a complete house cleaning of all upper personnel is in order. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2019, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15389 "2019-10-14T14:12:08Z")
I hate that they say ‘the officer perceived a threat’. They should say ‘the officer imagined a threat’. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2019, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15390 "2019-10-14T14:18:08Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > I can’t see how the killing of Atatiana Jefferson is anything other than an appalling, unjust, and criminal act. OK, so it was the wee hours of the morning, and the door was open. (It looks like a screen door was closed, but the main door was open.) So, _maybe_, the cops swinging by to make sure everything is OK is warranted–the next door neighbor (who is now racked with guilt) did apparently think so. > > But what the fuck is all this sneaking around, shining flashlights and peering through windows, then just shooting the first person you see? How about, I dunno, knocking on the door: _KNOCK KNOCK KNOCK_ “Fort Worth Police Department!..Oh, hello, ma’am, we’re just responding to a call from your neighbor who noticed the lights are on and your door is open and was a little concerned. Everything OK here? Just playing video games with your nephew? Sounds like fun! Sorry if we disturbed you, have a nice night.” > > As several people have already pointed out, even if the poor woman _was_ actually armed at the time she was shot, the cops didn’t identify themselves, didn’t (apparently) pull up with flashing blue lights–just, two dudes fucking _skulking_ around outside a house in the wee hours of the morning, shining their flashlights and peering through the windows of a home containing a twenty-something woman and her eight-year-old nephew. In Texas! She damned well would have been perfectly within her rights to be armed in response to that sort of nonsense (and, again, there’s no real evidence that she actually was holding any sort of weapon when she was just senselessly killed). > > I can’t see any way how the fucking shooter shouldn’t go to prison. The problem also lies in how the situation was framed by the concerned neighbor and dispatcher. There’s nothing wrong with being a concerned neighbor; it’s officers’ job to analyze the situation critically. A neighbor reports an open door - okay, so what does that mean? It could be a home invasion…or it could be that someone forgot to close the door. Or something in between. The officers - either because they were trained to approach in this manner or weren’t trained enough to avoid approaching the situation in this manner - assumed that the situation was a dangerous. This happens over and over again: officers trained to assume a suspicious situation is a potentially fatal encounter. There has to be pressure on the top brass to accept some level of responsibility and resign. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2019, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15391 "2019-10-14T14:43:02Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > It’s an institutionalized mentality that assumes that anyone an officer encounters on the street - you, me, or your neighbor - is a potential danger and that officers should be ready to shoot first and determine the facts later. Err on the side of death – someone else’s death. Often summed up as “_Better to be judged by 12 than carried by six_.” And every cop can tell all the second-hand stories about the unassuming “other” that “magically” conjured a gun out of nowhere, even after a pat-down, and proceeded to kill one or more officers at the scene. And that is always seen, in every encounter, as something with a strong chance of happening. There are no flukes or human errors in these stories – it’s something any witness, perpetrator, jaywalker, bike-rider, bystander, shadow in a window, etc. can do to a cop at any given moment. For them, the world is ever-dangerous at all moments. There is no down-time or any safe circumstance. There’s always a gun trained on them … somewhere. They are certain of it. And scared, 100% of the time. And more if mathematics allowed for it. How to change that animus as a central pillar of internal police culture? I wish I knew. I feel like if any and all police officers were wished to the cornfield right now … their replacements would adopt complete and total “gun fear” within a few months. Policing, for better or worse, creates a fast and tenacious “us or them” mindset – all of humanity is seen as not just flawed, but “bad”. “Could be” is considered certainty. Risk is unacceptable. “_Better to be judged by 12 than carried by six_.” ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2019, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15392 "2019-10-14T14:53:38Z")
> [@bordelond](#): > > Often summed up as “_Better to be judged by 12 than carried by six_.” > > And every cop can tell all the second-hand stories about the unassuming “other” that “magically” conjured a gun out of nowhere, even after a pat-down, and proceeded to kill one or more officers at the scene. And that is always seen, in every encounter, as something with a strong chance of happening. There are no flukes or human errors in these stories – it’s something any witness, perpetrator, jaywalker, bike-rider, bystander, shadow in a window, etc. can do to a cop at any given moment. For them, the world is ever-dangerous at all moments. There is no down-time or any safe circumstance. There’s always a gun trained on them … somewhere. They are certain of it. And scared, 100% of the time. And more if mathematics allowed for it. > > How to change that animus as a central pillar of internal police culture? I wish I knew. I feel like if any and all police officers were wished to the cornfield right now … their replacements would adopt complete and total “gun fear” within a few months. Policing, for better or worse, creates a fast and tenacious “us or them” mindset – all of humanity is seen as not just flawed, but “bad”. “Could be” is considered certainty. Risk is unacceptable. “_Better to be judged by 12 than carried by six_.” One factor is the type of personnel that are attracted to the job in the first place. I would imagine that top law enforcement agencies at the federal level have resources for employment screening - they can probably be selective. They can also develop training programs and procedural systems. They probably still have a police culture like any law enforcement unit does, but it’s a culture in which there is less reaction and more adherence to proper procedures. It’s probably a different story for many of the smaller law enforcement agencies that dot the map across the country. They’re working on limited budgets and they’re restricted to a small geographic region, which may not have a healthy pool of candidates to draw from. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2019, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15393 "2019-10-14T16:47:15Z")
> [@](#): > > In the video, he does not identify himself as an officer. This is fucked up on so many levels. So the doors were opened and the screen doors closed. This is a reason for a police visit??? They park around the corner? So that the people in the house can’t see a police car?? Because they suspect what?? A home invasion? Because the have a report of _an open door???_ The officers approach with stealth. On a welfare check call. They do not identify themselves as police officers. Because ‘stealth mode’. They ONLY information they had is that a door was open. How is this _possibly_ proper procedure? “Better to be judged by 12 than carried by six.” The homeowner would have been better off shooting at the intruder on her porch. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2019, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15394 "2019-10-14T17:55:24Z")
“He has been placed on administrative leave pending the outcome of an investigation.” And yet another paid vacation for slaughtering a negro. Disregard the constabulary. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2019, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15395 "2019-10-14T17:58:41Z")
> [@Skypist](#): > > This is so sad. I suppose the police officer will be “exonerated.” Well, he did give her 1.5 seconds to obey his shouted command from where he was hiding in the darkness outside of her home. And he did say he was scared. So yes, I expect he’ll get off. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2019, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15396 "2019-10-14T18:04:47Z")
The should be more clear in police departments about procedures when folks call with concerns: “Hello? I"m concerned - my neighbor’s door is open and I think someone should check on her” “OK mam, we’ll head on over and immediately shoot anyone we see inside, OK?” “Ummmm. No, that’s OK, I’ll go over myself and check on her, thanks. No, you cannot have the address. Bye” ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2019, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15397 "2019-10-14T18:09:21Z")
Fort Worth is in Tarrant County. Although the shooting was presumably by Fort Worth cops, Tarrant County’s Sheriff is in the news because he attended an anti-immigration event at the White House, where he claimed many undocumented immigrants in his jail are repeat DUI offenders . The sheriff said, ” “These drunks will run over your children, and they will run over my children.” His stepson was arrested on a DUI the next day. [http://www.wbap.com/2019/10/14/tarrant-county-sheriffs-son-arrested-for-public-intoxication-and-indecent-exposure/](http://www.wbap.com/2019/10/14/tarrant-county-sheriffs-son-arrested-for-public-intoxication-and-indecent-exposure/) By the way, Tarrant County is hundreds of miles from the border. It’s like calling in somebody from Missouri to talk about being an expert on border immigrants. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2019, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15398 "2019-10-14T19:14:18Z")
> [@TheMysteryWriter](#): > > People really need to quit calling out hits, I mean welfare checks, on other people. Don’t call the cops ever, for anything, unless you absolutely have to. In 2017, a woman in Minnesota was murdered _herself_ by the cops who showed up after she called to report a possible crime. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2019, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15399 "2019-10-14T19:34:57Z")
> [@](#): > > Officers responded at 2:25 a.m. to the house in the 1200 block of East Allen Avenue. James Smith, who called a _ **non-emergency police number** _, said he saw the doors were open and the lights were on, which struck him as unusual Why were they dispatched at 2:30 in the morning for a non-emergency? Why the everloving fuck didn’t they knock on the door??? Why were they creeping around the back like thieves? And for the love of GOD, why give a command and then fire before the person has a chance to comply? ---
**Author:** ![UCBearcats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/77aa72/32.png) [@UCBearcats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UCBearcats)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2019, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15400 "2019-10-14T19:35:59Z")
> **[Ex-Fort Worth police officer Aaron Dean charged with murder after shooting...](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2019/10/14/fort-worth-shooting-nephew-describes-moments-before-shooting/3973133002/)** > > Fort Worth officer Aaron Dean was charged with murder Monday after fatally shooting Atatiana Jefferson > while she played video games in her home. At least the Fort Worth shit stain resigned. Hopefully charges are next. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2019, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15401 "2019-10-14T19:41:22Z")
> [@UCBearcats](#): > > Hopefully charges are next. Whoo…Thanks for that. I haven’t laughed that hard since I was a little girl! ---
**Author:** ![mistymage](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mistymage/32/459_2.png) [@mistymage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mistymage)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2019, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15402 "2019-10-14T20:33:44Z")
You’re not allowed to be Black in your own front yard: > **[Pennsylvania Family Suing After Police Arrest Them For Loitering Outside...](https://www.comicsands.com/family-suing-police-arrest-loitering-2640965924.html?utm_content=inf_4_3759_2&utm_source=facebook&utm_campaign=BTAK&tse_id=INF_bfd277c0eeba11e9b433ab68d22425b2)** > > The Briggs family in Chester Township, PA., was wrongly arrested for loitering outside their own home and are now suing the police for criminalizing their family. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=769) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=771)